Free Will: Excellent discussion (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, February 19, 2015, 19:53 (3565 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: It doesn't matter much for the big picture of how evolution may have worked. As we agreed before, evolution proper began with multicellularity, and if you accept that multicellular organisms are sentient, emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, intelligent, cognitive, cooperative, communicative, decision-making beings, you are well on the way to accepting the possibility of an autonomous inventive mechanism.-I've said before some form of IM may well be present. I have no problem with the concept.-> David: The information coded into the DNA is under total control of the process. The molecules themselves do not react automatically but they follow DNA instructions at all times. He never uses the word sentient. [...] He explains how E. coli finds food with molecular reactions. It reacts appropriate to what is presented to it. Your computer does not have an original thought and neither does an E coli[/i].
 
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> dhw: On the subject of single-celled organisms and sentience, please read the following statements by Shapiro:
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> •	Bacteria are small but not stupid:
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> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.371.1320&rep=rep1&type... 
> QUOTE: “40 years experience as a bacterial geneticist have taught me that bacteria possess many cognitive, computational and evolutionary capabilities unimaginable in the first six decades of the 20th Century. Analysis of cellular processes such as metabolism, regulation of protein synthesis, and DNA repair established that bacteria continually monitor their external and internal environments and compute functional outputs based on information provided by their sensory apparatus. [...] Examination of colony development and organization led me to appreciate how extensive multicellular collaboration is among the majority of bacterial species. Contemporary research in many laboratories on cell-cell signaling, symbiosis and pathogenesis show that bacteria utilize sophisticated mechanisms for intercellular communication and even have the ability to commandeer the basic cell biology of “higher” plants and animals to meet their own needs. This remarkable series of observations requires us to revise basic ideas about biological information processing and recognize that even the smallest cells are sentient beings.” [My bold]
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> Quote: “My own view is that we are witnessing a major paradigm shift in the life sciences in the sense that Kuhn (1962) described that process. [...] Informatics rather than mechanics is now the key to explaining cell biology and cell activities. Bacteria are full participants in this paradigm shift, and the recognition of sophisticated information processing capacities in prokaryotic cells represents another step away from the anthropocentric view of the universe that dominated pre-scientific thinking. Not only are we no longer at the physical center of the universe; our status as the only sentient beings on the planet is dissolving as we learn more about how smart even the smallest living cells can be. [My bold]
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> dhw: You may recall that in the discussion under “Bacterial Intelligence”, although he found the question hard to answer, he concluded: “...if that isn't self awareness I don't know what is.” And if that isn't an argument for autonomous intelligence, I don't know what is.-I've left your quotes intact. I've read them before and in his book. They are important to re-read in the context of my interpretation. The bacteria are acting intelligently because their molecular sensory reactions carry messages to their DNA. In the DNA there are informatory instructions as to how to react to various stimuli. As Shapiro states, the molecules are not automatons (direct quote from the book), but the responding next set of molecules perform reactions under the instruction of the DNA to provide the proper response to each given stimulus. In my view this entire mechanism is an automatic coded responsiveness follow the information coded into DNA. And in evolution it can be seen in my kidney cells which function autonomously and automatically to make urine and keep my body salts in balance. This type of control started with the first bacteria, and was passed on multicellular organisms so each organ system could conduct its business without its owner worrying about it. This independent functional system had to start and be fully developed at the bacterial stage of evolution. It protects bacteria from any problems and challenges in its environment, and sets the stage for multicellularity. In summary, bacteria know what to do because they have been told what to do. There is no way that bacteria could have invented this information before the first primordial cells began. Hunt and peck would only lead to lifeless attempts. -As for bacterial autonomous invention, as you know, that must be done within bacterial DNA. I'm back to recognizing the original information in DNA, trying to answer the question about the source of that information and the further question of the source of added information for evolution to occur. Chance won't work. I'm back to God. You want a third way. If it is there it also must be God-given IMHO.