Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, December 31, 2020, 09:00 (1423 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

dhw:Your two statements were that the soul RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. You continue to ignore them.

DAVID: No!!! The soul is forced by a sick brain to create incorrect thought. The soul is trapped into using a bad tool of thought creation.

Why do you say “no” with three exclamation marks? It was you who made these two statements, which indicate that the brain analyses and judges!

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain.

DAVID: Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

dhw: This is a complete volte face. If consciousness is an emergent product of the brain, which in turn is an emergent product of all the biochemical interactions of all the cells, you have a material basis for consciousness and thought. No one can explain consciousness, through a soul or as an emergent product of the brain, but you now say that ”of course” it is the latter. Pure materialism!

DAVID: No, no, no! An emergent property is our garbage way of describing what we don't understand.

Nobody understands consciousness, but one theory is that its source is the brain. i.e. that it is a product of the biochemical interactions of the brain cells. That is materialism – precisely as you have described it. No “garbage” involved.

DAVID: A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..

Not even a materialist would deny that the brain has to be alive in order to think! That doesn’t mean there must be a separate entity called the soul which “emerges” from...what? You simply solve the mystery by creating another mystery!

dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

dhw: Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” […] Welcome to my fence.

DAVID: I'm not on the fence with you if you read my approach above. A pile of material proteins is simply a pile of material proteins. It requires the emergence of life and of consciousness, immaterial events we cannot explain. We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be.

Once again, we are in complete agreement. No one can explain life and consciousness. Materialists believe – just as you do – that these both emerge from biochemicals.

DAVID: What happens next is magical and immaterial. Why do life and consciousness appear? We have no answer at the material level itself. There is no way around the obvious dualism and the need for magic. That is where God is required.

We have no answer at ANY level, and so there are two theories. 1) The magic emerges somehow from the combination of materials, as you have described. 2) The magic emerges somehow from a mysterious, immaterial something (let’s call it a soul, because a name will make it sound real) designed by a mysterious magical, unknown being (let’s call him God). Diseased brains support 1), and NDEs support 2). You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not!