Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, December 09, 2020, 14:02 (1227 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: In a seizure (petit mal, because the grand mal loses consciousness altogether), the dualist’s brain sends sick information to the dualist’s soul. So why doesn’t the dualist’s soul say, “Nah, something weird going on here”? Instead, it says nothing. Why? And why, when the seizure is over, does the soul not remember ever having had such thoughts or even receiving such information?

DAVID: You don't realize it but you've answered yourself. In seizures the brain is sick and the soul can't do anything!!! When it is over the person/soul can realize what just happened. Seizures remove consciousness!! That is where the soul resides.

But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? Only the brain should be affected by the abnormal electric waves. But surprise, surprise: not until the seizure is over and the brain is normal again does normal thought return. Obvious conclusion: the brain is the source of thought and the seizure prevented the brain from thinking normally.

DAVID: If the brain thought formulation is revealed, if present just prior to seizure, why can't the brain formulate one during seizure?

Because the effect of the seizure is to incapacitate those parts of the brain that are the source of conscious thought. Hence the return of thought when the seizure ends.

DAVID: During seizure the brain is functional, with muscle movement, breathing, etc. Why isn't thought present? It never is. Consciousness is inoperative.

According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. Therefore it should not be affected by abnormal electrical charges hitting the brain. Muscle movement, breathing etc. continue because these are not dependent on that now incapacitated area of the brain which is responsible for conscious control, decision-making, the will etc.

DAVID: Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain. […] A true psychopath cannot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn't kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can't help what he is.

dhw: You’ve got it. It is the materialist’s brain that does the thinking, draws the conclusions, makes the decisions, and dictates the actions. The psychopath can’t help what he is. He has no free will. He is not responsible for the actions his brain makes him commit. “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” There is no place or function for a “soul” in this process, and hence seizures offer no grounds for believing there is such a thing.

DAVID: All backward as usual. A soul cannot be normal if the brain is abnormal. My immaterial self has an immaterial soul and an immaterial consciousness, and I myself, use my brain to think. I am trapped with it.

Your immaterial soul and consciousness ARE yourself (see below: “The ‘self’ is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.”) Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain! But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. He can’t help having an abnormally thinking brain. If the court thought he had a soul with a free will that controlled his behaviour, they would in some of your states happily send him off to be killed. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

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Free will: continuity of self

QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

dhw: […] Organic life has feelings and forms of consciousness that inorganic objects (we assume) do not have, but to my knowledge, the ONLY evidence we have of a self that goes beyond mere matter is psychic experiences (which in my view are to be taken seriously bb- I remain agnostic). But even then, if the self does NOT live on after death, it is obvious that there is no such thing as an immaterial self that “goes beyond” mere matter. Matter then has to be the generator of life, consciousness and self.

DAVID: All of this denies the evidence in NDE's. You are are same guy who had malaria and found a wife.

I have specifically stated that I am NOT denying the evidence of psychic experiences (now bolded), among which I would include NDEs. I have no idea what my wife has to do with it, but I am pleased to see that you have not made any attempt to defend the hollow argument offered by the article.