Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 00:05 (1440 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I've constantly answered and you refuse to accept it. The soul must actively use its brain networks to form a thought. It doesn't dictate to the brain as you imply.

You constantly repeat that the dualist’s soul uses the brain to form a thought. I constantly point out HOW it does so: it gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts (e.g. by speaking, writing, manufacturing etc.).

It uses all those mechanisms. But it also forms thoughts using the brain networks, and cannot do so if the brain is any way sick. The thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot fix them, as it must use the sick brain to do so..

DAVID: ..., if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false!

DAVID: Exactly!!! It is forced to accept the false information or thinking.

This is the point at which confusion takes over, largely because you refuse to clarify how the dualist’s soul uses the brain. I’ll substitute “healthy” for “normal” now, since the latter raises too many questions of definition. My argument begins with a healthy brain (i.e. not suffering from any sickness) supplying information, and the dualist’s soul thinking about it. For example, the teacher says God wants theists to murder atheists. 1st question to you: do you agree that the healthy dualist’s immaterial soul will decide whether this information passed by the teacher to the brain is true or false?

1) If the brain the soul is using is normal, it will know false, because the soul using a normal brain is clear thinking.

2nd question: do you agree that whatever action the dualist takes will be as a result of the immaterial soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its decision?

The soul doesn't just instruct the brain. it must use the brain circuits to have brain form a thought of false.

dhw: If your answer is yes, please explain why the immaterial soul becomes incapable of deciding whether the same information is true or false if it is passed on by a sick brain instead of a healthy brain.

Because the soul can only think with clarity in using the circuits in a normal brain. If the brain is sick, the soul trying to use its circuits will only receive false information or incorrect analytic thought.

“Sick brain, sick thoughts.” “Sick brain always results in sick thinking”. And clearest of all: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” What function does the soul perform if it is the brain that determines the nature of the thought? The soul might just as well not be there. And the fact that after the seizure (brain sickness) “normal” thought returns, clearly implies that the brain is the source of thought.

dhw: The ethical standards applied to the psychopath should therefore be applied to everyone (materialism and determinism). “His brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is.” But I am only following the implications of the argument put forward by Egnor and yourself. If you want a counter argument, I think you should stick to psychic experiences such as NDEs. I myself remain neutral.

The psychopath example I used I used is for the purpose of showing you a psychopath cannot develop a conscience, but the examples you are tortuously using above are all folks who can know or learn right and wrong, and are therefore guilty of crimes. For an example: a sociopathic child (and I've handled them with the parents) can learn to behave, and the trick is to let them get into trouble and receive the consequences, without protecting them and they gradually learn to respect the rest of us.