A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire (Introduction)

by BBella , Tuesday, September 22, 2015, 17:30 (3350 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.
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> BBELLA: You may not be able to or have had the opportunity to, but many that have had NDE's and lucid dreamers have made conscious choices. I have talked with a few that have experienced NDE's that made conscious choices, and I am a lucid dreamer (not always) that many times make conscious choices while dreaming.
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> Thank you for this. It adds yet another layer to the many levels of consciousness that we experience, not to mention the levels of control. NDEs and dualism offer a different dimension to our discussion on free will, but I don't think they change the basic premises Romansh and I have been discussing: even a separate mind will still be subject to cause and effect (= no free will), but it will still be our own unique mind, regardless of all influences (= free will).
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> I'm pleased to have support from both of you as regards conscious choices being integral to a definition, but I don't actually know why Romansh objects to it, since it does not make the slightest difference to the two premises above. My point is that unless we are aware of a choice, we will not use the faculty we call free will (whether it is free or not.) Perhaps one of you (or someone else) can explain the problem to me.-I take Romanash to be saying (which I don't think you disagree) and correct me if I'm wrong, Romanash, that all our present choices are made with all our history in mind (cause and effect). Our memories (subconscious included) and DNA determine our present choices. If any of these change (organ implants, blood transfusion or memory loss) our choices will be influenced. So again, cause and effect. So how free is free will? As free as a baby in a play pen full of toys. What determines what toy the baby chooses has everything to do with the child's history. -I noticed before my 88 year old father passed recently, that his memories had began to wane because of dementia and he began making different choices than he normally had in the past concerning foods, clothing, etc. It baffled and literally disturbed my aging mom to see him make different choices since she had been with him for over 66 years and so was as predictable as the clock. So her own memories of how things always were, determining how they should be, was getting in her way of accepting the situation - making both their experiences more difficult. -I noticed Dad was making choices in the moment, seemingly according to his senses, without the constraints of awareness of his past. But in reality, somewhere inside him, there was memory and DNA that determined even those choices he made. Cause and effect was still in operation even though he had lost his habitual self.-This may not have answered your question or may not represent Romanash's perspective, but is what came to mind.