Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 12:11 (1424 days ago) @ David Turell

A preliminary note: about three years ago, we had similar discussions on two threads: “Reconciling materialism and dualism” and “A theory of intelligence”. They might be worth revisiting, but I don’t have time now.

DAVID: To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to create thought.

dhw: A materialist would agree with that. The problem is that we do not know what constitutes “I”. You say mind/soul and body/brain. A materialist says body/brain. See below for more on this and on the soul “entering” the brain circuits.

DAVID: The 'I' is the immaterial me. For me it is my living soul. That immaterial whatever in my immaterial consciousness must employ my material brain circuits for any thought.

Yes, dualists say that consciousness arises from an immaterial self, and materialists say it arises from the brain. See below for your conversion.

DAVID: The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.

dhw: What does that mean, if it doesn’t meanthe soul using the information provided by the brain, thinking about it, and using the brain to give thought its material expression?

DAVID: The thought must be created using the material brain under the control of an immaterial soul, as a living self.

The same thing: the soul uses the brain to create its thoughts! How, if not as bolded above?

dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

Your two statements were that the soul RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. You continue to ignore them.

DAVID: Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

dhw: Above, you talk of the soul “entering” the brain circuits. It’s you, then, who separate soul and brain!

DAVID: I view them as separate entities!!! I am a dualist. I drive my brain to produce my thoughts.

First you “accuse” me of separating soul from brain (“off to the side”), and then you support the view that the soul and the brain are separate entities! There is no disagreement! Dualists believe in two separate entities that work together: the soul resides within the brain, and uses it as bolded above. Why won’t you accept this description of dualism?

DAVID: Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking […]

DAVID: Wild analysis of my theory. My soul thinks only by using my brain as its tool for thought.

Agreed. The dualist’s brain is NOT “made to think”. The thinking soul uses the brain as described above.

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain,

DAVID: Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

This is a complete volte face. If consciousness is an emergent product of the brain, which in turn is an emergent product of all the biochemical interactions of all the cells, you have a material basis for consciousness and thought. No one can explain consciousness, through a soul or as an emergent product of the brain, but you now say that ”of course” it is the latter. Pure materialism!

dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” – your very own words earlier in this post. Welcome to my fence.