Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Monday, December 14, 2020, 17:52 (1440 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: In order for the soul to create a thought it enters the brain networks and uses those networks to actually form the complete thought.

dhw: Earlier you accused me of separating the soul from the brain. Now you have it entering the brain! Where was it before, then? And HOW else does it “use” the networks of the brain, in addition to processing the information which the brain has given it, and then to giving material expression to its thoughts, as explained above? This is the question you continually avoid answering.

DAVID: I've constantly answered and you refuse to accept it. The soul must actively use its brain networks to form a thought. It doesn't dictate to the brain as you imply.

You constantly repeat that the dualist’s soul uses the brain to form a thought. I constantly point out HOW it does so: it gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts (e.g. by speaking, writing, manufacturing etc.). I ask you what other uses it makes of the brain, and you never answer. Now you have even denied one of the two uses: apparently the soul does NOT instruct the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. So how does the soul implement its decisions?

DAVID: ..., if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false!

DAVID: Exactly!!! It is forced to accept the false information or thinking.

This is the point at which confusion takes over, largely because you refuse to clarify how the dualist’s soul uses the brain. I’ll substitute “healthy” for “normal” now, since the latter raises too many questions of definition. My argument begins with a healthy brain (i.e. not suffering from any sickness) supplying information, and the dualist’s soul thinking about it. For example, the teacher says God wants theists to murder atheists. 1st question to you: do you agree that the healthy dualist’s immaterial soul will decide whether this information passed by the teacher to the brain is true or false? 2nd question: do you agree that whatever action the dualist takes will be as a result of the immaterial soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its decision?

If your answer in either case is no, please explain how else the immaterial soul uses the healthy brain.

If your answer is yes, please explain why the immaterial soul becomes incapable of deciding whether the same information is true or false if it is passed on by a sick brain instead of a healthy brain. I would suggest that the antisocial or murderous behaviour of the petit mal patient and of the psychopath can only mean that the material brain's sickness either makes the immaterial soul sick as well (but how?), or there is no immaterial soul in the first place, and all information-processing and thought is done by the brain itself (materialism). Your subsequent comments and observations point to the latter:

“Sick brain, sick thoughts.” “Sick brain always results in sick thinking”. And clearest of all: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” What function does the soul perform if it is the brain that determines the nature of the thought? The soul might just as well not be there. And the fact that after the seizure (brain sickness) “normal” thought returns, clearly implies that the brain is the source of thought.

The ethical standards applied to the psychopath should therefore be applied to everyone (materialism and determinism). “His brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is.” But I am only following the implications of the argument put forward by Egnor and yourself. If you want a counter argument, I think you should stick to psychic experiences such as NDEs. I myself remain neutral.