Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, December 26, 2020, 11:26 (1209 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

DAVID: No agreement.

dhw: You agreed four or five days that this was the case “in its limited form”, but never explained what you meant, and you bolded your own statement that “the soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool!” Why would these functions change if the brain is sick?

DAVID: Because a sick brain will only give soul thinking with that ill brain a false analysis.

How can the brain give the soul a false analysis when it is the soul that does the analysing? All this confusion arises out of your refusal to accept the different FUNCTIONS of the dualist’s brain and the dualist’s soul!

dhw: WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

DAVID: Form its thoughts by activating brain networks which it must use.

dhw: Activating brain networks to do what…to use for what?

DAVID: To form its thoughts. The living soul without active brain networks cannot think. […] Do you form thoughts by activating you brains networks?

(I've adapted my earlier reply for clarity:) Yes – my dualist's soul would gather information and give material expression to the thoughts I have then formulated about that information! My materialist brain would do the same, with the thinking part of the brain activating other parts of the brain.

DAVID: The bold is the key!!! By what process does your self formulate thought?

Of course that’s the key. How often do you want me to repeat the process? The dualist’s immaterial soul processes the information provided by the material brain, forms conclusions etc., and then uses the brain to give material expression to its thoughts! The materialist believes that the process depends entirely on the material brain, with some sections responsible for providing the information, and others responsible for thinking about it.

dhw: […] you wrote above that “the material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought.” In dualism, the material brain does not think!

DAVID: Full agreement.

So what is the meaning of your bolded sentence, which implies that the brain can only think if the soul uses it to form thought? Once again, you are slipping and sliding in order to avoid pin-pointing the different functions of the dualist’s soul and brain.

dhw: Our discussion started because you and Egnor try to make out that seizures are evidence against materialism. But the psychopath and the epileptic and the drug addict and the drunkard all demonstrate how thought is affected by changes to the brain, and your example of the psychopath’s diseased brain being unable to form a correct judgement is a vivid illustration of materialism and determinism, not of dualism and free will.

DAVID: The bold is where your logic falls apart as you miss-analyze it. The psychopath is trapped at having to try to form thought forced to use a sick brain. The sick brain does not permit him the ability to form normal thought. Egnor and I believe we think using our brain. But a normal brain must be present to form normal thinking. A sick brain results in sick thought as the soul attempts to create it. The brain is just a tool for the soul, not an originator of any thought on its own. Pure dualism, no smidgen of materialism. What is your problem with this?

No problem, and I do wish you would stick to the bold, but you won’t and don’t. Over and over again, you have the dualist’s brain thinking – the latest and prime example being that the psychopath’s diseased brain cannot form a correct judgement, as bolded. The dualist’s brain does not form judgements! That is the role of the soul, regardless of the truth or falsity of information provided by the brain. This is echoed by all the examples which show that brain abnormalities, whether permanent or temporary, are accompanied by abnormal thinking, and when the brain abnormality is cured, normal thinking returns. The dualist’s soul’s function is to process the information and make its judgements. The proposal that the brain makes incorrect judgements (previously it provided “incorrect analytic thought”) may be taken as evidence that a soul is not there! I am not arguing for materialism. I remain neutral. But just as psychic experiences suggest that there IS a soul, brain disease suggests that there ISN’T. So long as you continue to insist that the sick brain provides incorrect analyses and judgements, you are supporting materialism and determinism.