Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Sunday, December 06, 2020, 20:25 (1448 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

DAVID: Same point: a soul must work with the brain. Sick brain, sick thoughts. They are tied together in life.

dhw: Yes, the dualist’s soul and brain are tied together in life because the soul works with the brain by using it for information and for implementation of its thoughts, but it is the SOUL that does the thinking. Even under normal circumstances, if the brain is deceived by some trickery and sends false information to the soul (the lady was sawn in half but came out whole), the dualist’s soul will process the information sent by the brain, in order to test it.

The brain does not send anything to a separate soul. The soul is intimately tied to the brain circuits and receives info from brain memories or senses by extraction initiated by the soul. What you seem to neglect is the brain is entirely passive under the soul's directions. The soul extracts what it wants and thinks what it wants using the brain.

dhw: So 1) why is the soul incapable of thinking about the false information provided by the sick brain? 2) Why is it that when the brain is cured of its sickness, normal reasoning returns?

See explanation above. Sick brain traps the soul into sick thinking, because the soul MUST use the brain's sick circuits to think.

DAVID: Because in life the soul MUST use brain circuits to create any thought. In a grand mal seizure the brain is not incapacitated. All the muscles are thrashing about from electrical impulses hitting motor areas. But the conceptual area produces nothing, when it obviously could if it had anything it could produce.

dhw: In grand mal seizures, the patient is unconscious, but according to dualism, consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain. The soul processes and thinks about the information provided by the brain, and the soul makes decisions, and the brain implements them through its control of the body. The loss of consciousness in a grand mal seizure only makes sense if the sick brain is the source of consciousness! When the brain returns to normal, consciousness returns!

View the brain as an instrument the soul must use. The abnormal electrical wave can make muscles move. It does hit the pre-frontal cortex, but no abstractions appear as the fit ends. If they had been created they should be sitting there ready to be recognized. Egnor knows all you have objected to in epileptic seizures, and is not bothered by that. Why? He has noted, during brain surgery, that stimulations of the abstraction creating areas have been performed and no ideas appear!!! Another aspect of his position presented before.

dhw: […] a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

DAVID: A dualist knows a brain can't think if unconscious. What is your point?

dhw: A dualist believes that a brain can’t think anyway, and consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain! It is the dualist’s soul that does the thinking. So yet again, if the soul is the source of consciousness, why does it lose consciousness when the brain shuts down? The obvious answer is that it is NOT the source of consciousness, and hence is NOT the source of abstract thought and decision-making!

In life the soul must have an active brain cortex to be conscious. They are completely tied together. One won't work without the other

DAVID: No concepts appear while the brain is driven by abnormal electrical impulses, and the soul is not acting.

dhw: And that is the crux of the matter. If the immaterial soul does the thinking, why is it NOT thinking about the false information being delivered by the brain during a seizure? Why should thinking cease when the brain is sick?

It is not separate from the brain circuits. It is absolutely tied to them and must use them to think. You are describing an untruth, the soul separate from the brain, when it can't think unless using the brain as an instrument of thought.

DAVID: Seizures are only produced by an abnormal electrical focus in the brain. The soul is not involved.

dhw: You keep reinforcing the argument AGAINST dualism (which is fine, except that you think you are supporting dualism). If the conscious, thinking soul is not involved when an abnormal electrical focus takes place in the brain, why does it stop thinking?

Because the brain is abnormal at that moment and the soul MUST use brain circuits to think.

DAVID: In NDE's the cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead, and the soul is free to think on its own.

dhw: In a grand mal seizure, the patient is unconscious. The cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead. So why can’t the soul think?

Because the brain is non-functional and the soul must use the brain circuits to think. Your form of dualism keeps the brain and the soul separate. They are intimately connected in life and therefore totally dependent upon each other for proper function. A living soul without a brain cannot think, and a living brain cannot think without a soul.