Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 08:24 (1231 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning.

DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. Seizures entering the pre-frontal and frontal cortex should unearth abstract thought if the brain alone is a manufacturer of them.

So let’s forget your patient, who did not have a seizure. The whole point about any illness is that it stops certain parts of the body from functioning as they normally do. The cure allows the body to function normally again. In a seizure, once the abnormal electrical impulses have stopped messing with the brain, the patient can think normally again. Yes or no? The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: […] it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

DAVID: That is exactly not what he is claiming!!! See above. Egnor says the brain alone if stimulated NEVER invents an abstract thought on its own, soul not involved.

I know what he is claiming, and it doesn’t make sense. During a seizure the brain is incapacitated! In a grand mal it’s unconscious; in a petit mal it has varying degrees of consciousness. It is sick! Only when the sickness ends does it regain its normal consciousness and powers of reasoning. Once more: if the soul is the source of abstract reasoning, why is it unable to think abstractly just because the brain is sick?

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

dhw: Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

DAVID: My opinion has been quite clear!!! The brain can't think by itself. A connected soul must do it using the brain's neuron networks. You are correct. With a connected soul consciousness appears and abstract thought can then be created.

You have not answered my question, but you have agreed over and over again that the dualist’s material brain can’t think...full stop. The thinking soul uses the brain (for information and implementation). So a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

dhw: Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. He is discussing an electrical impulse hitting abnormally in the brain, NO SOUL AT WORK or PRESENT. If the brain alone can produce abstractions, why don't they appear ever stimulated by electrical impulses?

You keep telling me my point is not Egnor’s point. I know. I am opposing Egnor, and so are you, though you don’t realize it. The brain is now abnormal because it has been incapacitated by abnormal electrical impulses! And so it can’t produce its normal abstractions. Why all of a sudden is the soul not at work or present? If the soul is the immaterial source of abstractions, then it should not be affected by the material damage to the material brain.

DAVID: Electrical impulses drive neurons to produce thought, only if the soul is driving the impulses. They never appear in seizures if ONLY the brain is involved in the activity of producing abstractions.

What does this mean? A seizure denotes an abnormality in the brain. The electrical impulses are abnormal. And so the thoughts are abnormal. Are you now saying that the soul produces abnormal electrical impulses and therefore brain seizures are caused by an abnormality in the soul? Once more: 1) if the soul is the producer of abstract thought, why doesn’t it carry on producing abstract thought when the immaterial brain is incapacitated? 2) Why is it that while the brain is sick, the thoughts are sick and non-abstract, but when the brain is “cured”, normal abstract thoughts return?