Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, December 17, 2020, 11:02 (1437 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them? Quotes from you: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”; “sick brain equals sick thoughts”; “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

DAVID: The soul using the brain networks is the source of thought.

dhw: Agreed. The dualist’s soul uses the brain for information and implementation. The brain does not produce the thoughts.

DAVID: The soul produces thought by using the brain's networks. The brain can never do it on its own.

This is the first of a whole series of silly obfuscations. Yes, the soul does the thinking, and uses the brain for information and material expression of its thoughts. In your second sentence, what can’t the brain do on its own? Here’s your answer:

DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

dhw: Back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

DAVID: Exactly, using the brain.

You’ve got it. The soul does the thinking, and uses the brain for information and material implementation/expression. That should be the end of this discussion. But still you go on and on telling us that the brain thinks:

DAVID: I/ living soul drive my brain to think.

dhw: So what does the dualist's brain think about? More to the point, what processes the information provided by the brain, and what draws conclusions/makes decisions etc.?

DAVID: Whatever the soul wants/has it do. The soul thinks only by using the brain.

Yes, the dualist's soul thinks by using the brain, as above. The soul does not drive the brain to think!

DAVID: The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

dhw: But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.

DAVID: Only driven by the soul.

Which means the soul drives the brain to do the analysing, which the soul then “receives”. But the dualist’s soul is supposed to do the analysing!

DAVID: The soul's role is to drive thinking in the brain. The brain does not think unless the soul wishes to think.

dhw: What does this mean? You seem to be saying that the soul tells the brain to analyse all the information and come to a conclusion or decision! What else is there for it to think about?

DAVID: The brain doesn't analyze anything without the soul using the brain to do it.

And what does THAT mean? You have the brain doing the analysis, and then you have the soul using the brain to do the analysis! Total confusion! You now repeat your acceptance of what I have said, directly contradicting all the stuff about the brain thinking:

dhw: But you have told us that you/your soul tells the brain to think!

DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

DAVID: My brain thinks only what I/soul want to think. Only a sick brain can change desired thought the soul wishes to make.

The dualist's brain doesn’t think. Full stop. Your comment totally misses the point I am making here, which is that the two-way process makes it impossible to judge whether the source of consciousness is a soul or the brain.

DAVID: And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

dhw: No it isn’t. I have presented both sides of the argument, and remain neutral. What I have criticized is that you continually ignore the question of what the dualist's soul uses the brain for, and you present the case for materialism by insisting that the brain thinks – even to the point of analysing the information it gathers.

DAVID: I totally reject materialism. The soul thinks by using the brain. The brain cannot think without a soul driving it. That should be quite clear.

Yes, the soul thinks by using the brain. No, the soul does not drive the brain to think, because the brain does not think, as you keep agreeing and then disagreeing. The dualist’s soul uses the dualist’s brain for information and material implementation/ expression of the soul’s thoughts. Materialists argue that the brain does it all, including the thinking. Whenever you have the brain thinking, you are supporting materialism. (I'd better repeat that I remain neutral on the subject).