Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, December 11, 2020, 09:12 (1443 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.

DAVID: This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought.

This is where you have always muddied the waters by glossing over what the soul uses the brain for. You have agreed in the past that it “uses” the brain to gather information and then to give material expression to its thoughts. What else does it use the brain for? Please answer.

DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

But the dualist’s sick brain does not produce thoughts. It produces the information that the dualist’s soul thinks about. It is the dualist’s soul that “forms” the thought. Yes or no? I gave an example of false information in normal circumstances: the magician saws the woman in half. The soul, as the source of abstract reasoning, challenges the false information. By the same token, it should challenge any false information sent to it by the sick brain.

DAVID: Only in death or loss of function transiently (NDE's) is the soul actually separate and thinks on its own, brain not involved.

I acknowledge NDEs and other psychic experiences as possible evidence for the existence of a soul. But this doesn’t explain how your concept of dualism works in life.

DAVID: […] If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me.

If you are your “soul”, you appear to be saying your soul initiates thought, your brain thinks, and your soul recognizes the brain’s thought as it appears. I have no idea what this means. Here is my proposed version of the dualist process: the brain provides information to the soul; the soul formulates thoughts/decisions (we mustn’t forget “free will”) etc. about the information; the soul directs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts/decisions etc. The process could hardly be clearer, so why do you now reject it?

You gave us an extreme case of permanent sickness: the psychopath commits murder. Your verdict: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. The sick psychopath “cannot socialize because his brain makes him that way. […] He can’t help what he is.” But if the brain makes him what he is, and normal thinking comes from a normal brain, then it is the brain that makes all of us what we are. So what is the function of a soul? You could hardly make a clearer case for materialism, or for determinism. (And of course, you may be right.)