Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, December 03, 2020, 20:34 (1451 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

dhw: And neither did I. The whole point is that it STOPS abstract thinking/reasoning. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your example. I thought you said the patient realized during the seizure that the smell of the sea was an illusion,

The patient experienced a sensory event sent from a brain tumor that repeated a memorized smell, and reported it to me. She was clear she knew it was a problem and the whole event occurred when she was fully aware. It is an example of what is stored in the brain and can triggered into consciousness by an electrical event less than a seizure. this applies to your lack of understanding about abstractions. If memory of smells can be activated when can't the prefrontal cortex (abstraction area) produce a recognized absttraction?

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

DAVID: You are so contortedly confused. The abstraction area is absolutely normal before and after the seizure. When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the soul?

You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

DAVID: Egnor has produced another essay:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/has-neuroscience-proved-that-the-mind-is-just-the-brain/

dhw: A neat summary: “There is no explanation for the mental on the basis of the physical. No physics or chemistry explains thought.”

Agreed, and he goes on to quote scientists who share his views. However, here is an interesting point:

QUOTE: Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists

dhw: In nearly all the subjects we discuss, there are conflicting arguments. I don’t for one moment imagine that materialist neuroscientists know less than Egnor about the brain. The fact that nobody can explain consciousness suggests to me that anyone who thinks he can (either by inventing an immaterial soul or by inventing an unknown formula for physics + chemistry = consciousness) is relying on faith and not on science. Why can't people see that there are usually two sides to these arguments?

QUOTE: "The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body.”

dhw: I pointed this out in my previous post. The conflict between this and “sick brain = sick thought”, and the fact that consciousness remains a total mystery, make it impossible for me to decide between the two schools of thought. That is why I stay on my fence!

Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul. Whether the soul is immortal is another outside issue. Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act. But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.