Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, November 30, 2020, 14:50 (1454 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.

DAVID: Egnor's proof is totally valid in this discussion. His point still is if the brain is the lone creator of thoughts (sans soul), uncontrolled electricity from seizures entering the neurons that are used for thinking should create thought and they do not. What is lacking is the driving force from the soul, the true originator of thought by using the brain circuits. I haven't seen you disprove that considering neither he nor I care about determinism's dismissal of a soul at work.

dhw: Unfortunately there is a missing noun (neurons). Do you mean the brain cells that materialists believe are used for thinking? If so, you have made the opposite point yourself: “sick brains force sick thinking”. Not no thought but sick thought. If the patient’s sick brain makes him think sick thoughts, how does that prove that the patient has a thinking soul and free will?

Egnor follows option 2, as does Aquinas: “My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will.” But Egnor also says: “…these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions” but “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” If the soul is responsible for abstract reasoning, then it should be able to reason about the concrete thoughts that occur when the brain is sick. BUT IT DOESN’T! So how on earth does this “prove” that there is a soul and there is free will? On the contrary, it supports the materialist equation of sick brain = sick thoughts, clever brain = clever thoughts, stupid brain = stupid thoughts. (However, this is contradicted by NDEs, in which abstract reasoning takes place when the brain is not functioning. Hence my own agnosticism on the subject.)

The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

dhw: You have now agreed that whether we believe in free will or not depends on what we think the will is free from. Option 1: free from all influences beyond our control (e.g. the nature of our brain). Option 2: free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation and by our own limitations. These options apply whether you are a dualist or a materialist.

Yes.