Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)
dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.
This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought. Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form. Only in death or loss of function transiently (NDE's) is the soul actually separate and thinks on its own, brain not involved. Your phraseology above has always troubled me as not realizing what I think about the required brain soul connection for thought creation. Your preconceived 'dualism' has never recognized my objections to your restatements. If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me.
dhw: But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.DAVID: Seizures mean no consciousness, a brain state required for producing thought by the soul, and briefly no free will.
dhw: Again, you are assuming that the brain has to be conscious if the soul is to be conscious. But if the brain is conscious, why does it need a soul to do the thinking? It could hardly be more straightforward: 1) seizure affects thinking brain and stops thought.
See above to end your confusion about my form of dualism which I think is also Egnor's.
xxxxxFree will: continuity of self
QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)dhw: I could not see how this could possibly be used as an argument for the existence of a soul, and pointed out that for me, psychic experiences (which of course include NDEs) were the only evidence we had. You thought I had ignored NDEs. I hadn’t. Simply an oversight on your part.
OK
Complete thread:
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2015-11-19, 01:15
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2015-11-20, 01:25
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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David Turell,
2015-11-20, 01:25
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-19, 20:09
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-19, 01:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-18, 20:54
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-17, 18:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-16, 15:36
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-16, 12:56
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-15, 15:49
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-15, 13:45
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-14, 15:43
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-14, 04:31
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-13, 13:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-13, 00:21
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-12, 21:52
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-12, 19:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-11, 18:47
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-11, 15:29
- A Sense of Free Will: a new essay -
David Turell,
2015-10-20, 01:09
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-28, 19:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-28, 00:47
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-27, 17:06
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-26, 18:24
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
BBella,
2015-09-20, 18:07
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-09-20, 14:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-20, 14:28
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-20, 00:18
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-19, 12:30
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-18, 17:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-17, 22:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 18:33
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-15, 14:03
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:42
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-10, 03:21
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:30
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-07, 23:56
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-06, 17:16
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-06, 16:35
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-08-31, 00:43
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-08-30, 19:14
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-30, 18:49
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 18:46
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-15, 18:45
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-15, 00:25
- Free Will and Jerry Coyne -
romansh,
2015-08-14, 21:37
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-14, 00:10
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 21:36
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 18:07
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 17:12
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 16:30
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 14:47
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 14:31
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-12, 23:38
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-12, 22:55
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-12, 20:23
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-12, 14:13
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-11, 20:02
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-11, 15:34
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-11, 14:35
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-11, 01:35
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-10, 20:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-10, 19:48
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-10, 17:39
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-10, 15:27
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-04, 04:01
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-04, 04:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-04, 01:44
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-03, 14:43
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-03, 04:50
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-02, 15:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-02, 14:32
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-02, 04:30
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-02, 02:25
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 18:41
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 17:59
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 17:41
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 16:54
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 14:15
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 02:37
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-07-31, 22:36
- Free Will: another take on it -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 14:24
- Free Will: childhood development of -
David Turell,
2015-05-04, 01:59
- Free Will: A new book says yes -
David Turell,
2015-04-03, 00:10
- Free Will: Round worm experiment -
David Turell,
2015-03-14, 17:06
- Free Will: Excellent discussion (not) -
David Turell,
2015-02-26, 14:54
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
dhw,
2015-02-13, 14:02
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
David Turell,
2015-02-12, 15:42
- Free Will: Neuron cell division -
David Turell,
2015-01-25, 16:05
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-19, 00:36
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 21:16
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-18, 19:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 16:11
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-18, 05:50
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 01:34
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 21:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-17, 17:25
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 00:59
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 00:10
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 01:34
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
GateKeeper,
2014-06-25, 14:24
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-06-25, 11:20
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
David Turell,
2014-06-24, 23:53
- Free will: brain activity -
David Turell,
2014-06-10, 17:17
- Free will: brain activity -
GateKeeper,
2014-06-10, 15:32
- Free will: brain activity -
David Turell,
2014-06-10, 15:11
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 17:56
- Free will: reasoned article -
romansh,
2014-05-19, 16:44
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 15:39
- Free will and wiring -
David Turell,
2014-04-03, 22:33