dhw: big brain evolution:comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, April 18, 2019, 11:40 (589 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: My point above is quite clear. We both state God is in charge of evolution, as you assume a theistic position. My suggested ways God might have exerted control are obvious possibilities. Since God has purposes in His methods, I strongly doubt He allows free expression by organisms as they evolve.

dhw: As usual, you try to separate purpose and method. Apart from vague references to plural goals, you have always insisted that the whole of evolution was preprogrammed or dabbled for the sole purpose of producing the brain of H. sapiens. Now you say you don’t actually believe that every bacterial action, evolutionary innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder was preprogrammed or dabbled (your nebulous “guidelines” come under the same umbrella). Thank you. What alternatives are there besides “free expression”? And what makes you think that there cannot be a purpose behind “free expression”?

DAVID: Weird comment. What don't you understand about the meaning of 'free'? If organisms have the free ability to evolve whatever they want, why knows what might have developed and how could have any purposeful result? Evolution with purpose means evolving toward a living goal of a specific organism.

Over and over again you hammer home the idea of purpose. Why does your concept of purpose stop at producing humans? When challenged, you yourself suggested that your God might enjoy watching his creations as a painter enjoys looking at his paintings, and his purpose in producing humans was to have us admire his work and to form a relationship with him. “Who knows what might develop?” is precisely the attraction of “free expression”. Which would you “enjoy” more (your term), a totally predictable spectacle, or one filled with unexpected delights? But we still have the option of dabbling. What we do not have is the total illogicality of your God spending 3.5+ billion years not designing the only thing he wants to design.

DAVID: I can only interpret the history. I've simply described it and attributed it to God's right to choose a method of development/creation.

Of course he has the right to choose. That does not mean he chose the incomprehensible combination of purpose and method that you impose on him.

DAVID: You keep implying God should have instantly created humans, but that isn't what actually happened. Assuming God was in charge, and you do for discussion purposes, it is patently obvious He chose to evolve humans over lots of time.

No, it isn’t what happened, and that is why it is illogical to claim that his only purpose was to produce humans, but he spent 3.5+ billion years not producing humans! What is patently obvious is that there have been millions of different life forms, econiches, lifestyles and natural wonders, and the latest of these is humans. If God exists, he must have wanted millions of different life forms etc. – not just one! I have offered a variety of ways to interpret this history, with different combinations of purpose and method, and the only one that neither you nor I can understand is yours.

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