dhw: big brain evolution:comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 13:45 (2045 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: My point is simpler than your question. I believe God is in charge of evolution and guides its development to achieve His goals. Pre-programming and dabbling are my suggestions as to how it might be accomplished. They are not at the level of belief.

dhw: If your God exists, then of course he is in charge of evolution. Now you are once again talking of goals rather than goal, and you do not even believe in your hypothesis of a 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for every single undabbled bacterial action, evolutionary innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder, the alternative to which can only be that your God allows autonomy (which is NOT autonomy if organisms must follow "guidelines", i.e. programmes or personal instructions).

DAVID: My point above is quite clear. We both state God is in charge of evolution, as you assume a theistic position. My suggested ways God might have exerted control are obvious possibilities. Since God has purposes in His methods, I strongly doubt He allows free expression by organisms as they evolve.

As usual, you try to separate purpose and method. Apart from vague references to plural goals, you have always insisted that the whole of evolution was preprogrammed or dabbled for the sole purpose of producing the brain of H. sapiens. Now you say you don’t actually believe that every bacterial action, evolutionary innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder was preprogrammed or dabbled (your nebulous “guidelines” come under the same umbrella). Thank you. What alternatives are there besides “free expression”? And what makes you think that there cannot be a purpose behind “free expression”?

DAVID: If you admit God was in charge of evolution, why can't He have freedom of choice? You make no sense.

Of course he has freedom of choice! My complaint is that you keep insisting that he chose what you want him to choose (specially designing 3.5+ billion years of non-human life forms to eat or not eat each other before he specially designed the only thing he wanted to design: H. sapiens). There are several alternatives to this incomprehensible one (you have “no idea” why he would have chosen it), but now you try to dismiss them on the grounds that your God was free to choose your version!

DAVID: All of your suppositions about God imply limits, indecision or incompetence, or your own self-imposed impatience wondering why He waited so long. I fully understand He has the right to choose His method and you've agreed. I'm sure you can follow this logic.

dhw: At one moment you say I insist on God’s omnipotence, and the next that I insist on his limitations! My different hypotheses embrace ALL the different possibilities, and you accept that they all provide logical explanations of life’s history, in contrast to your own.

DAVID: The difference is I've made decisions and you can't or won't.

You have decided to stick to your own hypothesis and reject the others, despite your agreement that at least one vital portion of it (the preprogramming and dabbling method of achieving your interpretation of your God’s purpose) is not strong enough to constitute a belief! Your decision, once we accept the God hypothesis, is that his sole purpose was to produce H. sapiens, except that it might not have been his sole purpose, he may have preprogrammed or dabbled the whole of evolution, but you don’t actually believe that, and he chose to spend 3.5+ billion years specially designing anything but the one thing he wanted to specially design and you have no idea why.