dhw: big brain evolution:comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 14:00 (2046 days ago) @ David Turell

I am combining this thread with “Immunity system complexity” as the discussion has now shifted away from cellular cellular intelligence.

dhw: A hidden, unknowable, universal mind that never came from anywhere but has always been there is as difficult for me to believe in as it is to believe in chance as the creator of all life’s complexities. Yes, I am neutral. Now please tell us: do you really believe that your God preprogrammed or dabbled every single bacterial action throughout the history of life?

DAVID: My point is simpler than your question. I believe God is in charge of evolution and guides its development to achieve His goals. Pre-programming and dabbling are my suggestions as to how it might be accomplished. They are not at the level of belief.

If your God exists, then of course he is in charge of evolution. Now you are once again talking of goals rather than goal, and you do not even believe in your hypothesis of a 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for every single undabbled bacterial action, evolutionary innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder, the alternative to which can only be that your God allows autonomy (which is NOT autonomy if organisms must follow "guidelines", i.e. a programme). You admit to having no idea why your God would have chosen your suggested method to achieve your suggested purpose, and since you accept the logicality of all the different alternatives that I have suggested,why not join me on this particular fence and remain open to them all? (NB, the free-for-all hypothesis allows for your God to dabble if he feels like it, and therefore covers your “guides its development”.)

DAVID: And, of course, God did specifically design humans by carefully managing their eventual appearance, including providing the enlargement of their magnificent brains.

dhw: But you keep insisting that everything else was also specifically designed, from whale fins to cuttlefish camouflage to weaverbirds’ nests, and that is why your hypotheses clash. If his sole purpose was to specifically design our magnificent brains, why did he bother with the rest?

DAVID: To feed evolution throughout the time it took remember?

Back we go: if he specifically designed humans, including specifically designing their magnificent brains, it makes no sense to say that he couldn’t specifically design them until he had spent 3.5+ billion years specifically designing millions of non-human life forms simply so that they could eat or not eat one another! Why keep harping on about food when you yourself admit that you have no idea why your God chose the method YOU insist on, although you have now stopped insisting and tell us you don’t actually believe it.

DAVID: All of your suppositions about God imply limits, indecision or incompetence, or your own self-imposed impatience wondering why He waited so long. I fully understand He has the right to choose His method and you've agreed. I'm sure you can follow this logic.

At one moment you say I insist on God’s omnipotence, and the next that I insist on his limitations! My different hypotheses embrace ALL the different possibilities, and you accept that they all provide logical explanations of life’s history, in contrast to your own.