dhw: big brain evolution:comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Tuesday, March 26, 2019, 16:50 (236 days ago) @ dhw

Transferred from the Behe thread.
DAVID: […[ God chose to delay the appearance of humans because He chose to evolve them over time, which fits the history. They appeared last. Therefore the complexity of food supply had to exist for evolution to continue. By the way, divergent pathways and contemporaneous pathways obviously can be the same. As for goal, read Adler's argument.

dhw: Your first statement is not a reason but is pure tautology: he chose not to directly create the one thing he wanted because he chose not to directly create the one thing he wanted. And you keep admitting you have no idea why he did so. Of course divergent paths can be contemporaneous, but parallel paths are not divergent, and it is the divergence of pathways or the “bush of life” that renders your single goal plus “full control” illogical. (See “Big brain evolution”)

DAVID: Of course I cannot know why God chose evolution. Which does not make me illogical. It is your definition of full control that is incorrect. If God created the universe, evolved it, then the very special Earth and evolved its conditions, than started life and evolved it, God is fully in charge. IF in the evolution of living forms He found He had some limiting circumstances, He is still in full control in the sense that He is the sole driving force.

dhw: If God exists, then of course he did all this and is in charge. But if he can’t fulfil his one and only purpose unless he follows one particular path dictated by limiting circumstances, he is NOT in full control! He is dictated to by those circumstances. And that makes for a mighty peculiar mode of fulfilment, since he would have created the circumstances in the first place!

Again, your definition of 'full control' and mine differ. I state He is the 'sole driver' of events. As such He is in full control, even if He finds that His invention of life has limits for Him so that He is forced to evolve the Forms He want. You want 'all-powerful' without limits, but you have suggested limits in the past. I'll stick to my approach.


DAVID: I do understand it. You refuse to follow my reasoning, since your definition of full control differs from mine, See above.

dhw: So when you say you have no idea why your God "chose to evolve humans over time", you mean you do understand it: he chose this method because “full control” means he couldn’t do it any other way, i.e. he had no choice.

DAVID: Exactly as in the second bold above. You finally understand my thinking, and it is not illogical. But, and there is always a second possibility, He simply made a choice despite being unlimited. We cannot know for sure which is correct. Your constant complaint about an all-powerful God choosing to wait is purely a human 'impatience' style of thinking.

dhw: We are making progress. At least you are now considering two different hypotheses (limited versus unlimited powers), but you have not yet considered the implications, because you still refuse to recognize that it is the COMBINATION of hypotheses that makes your thinking illogical. 1) In order to fulfil his only purpose (to design H. sapiens), he created circumstances which prevented him from doing so unless he specially preprogrammed or dabbled every single innovation leading to every single life form, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder extant and extinct in the history of life, including those leading from ape to H. sapiens. Does that make sense?

Note my point above: We do not know if God sees His own future with omniscience, a religious interpretation. He might not have foreseen that life is difficult to create without evolution.

dhw: On the other hand, he may be in full control, i.e. have the power to do whatever he wants. In that case, he deliberately did all the above preprogramming and dabbling, even though all he actually wanted was H. sapiens. Does that make sense? Since you admit that you have no idea why he “chose to evolve humans over time”, it obviously doesn’t.

Sorry, but it makes complete sense. Obviously, I cannot know why He chose the course He did, so not knowing why is no fault of mine. And you've agreed He has the right to choose his methodology.

dhw: I shan’t repeat all the different hypotheses I have offered in order to resolve these illogicalities. You have admitted that they fit in with the real history of life, and so the only point of agreement here is that we cannot know anything for sure.

I've admitted your hypothesis have alternate logical bases, but I have the right to choose the one I think is more correct.


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