dhw: big brain evolution:comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 13:28 (2052 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: So now apparently you are puzzled that your God chose a roundabout route to create whales, whereas you are not puzzled that your God chose a roundabout route to create the brain of H. sapiens. […]

DAVID: You missed the entire point. Whale changes requires extraordinary physiological changes, a point I've constantly made. Evolving humans was simply part of evolving everything. You continue to be the direct creationist in this discussion.

dhw: What does “simply part of evolving everything mean”? You have spent years […] insisting that every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder is the direct result of God’s preprogramming or dabbling. All that is left of evolution is common descent, which means your God programmed or dabbled all changes to take place in existing organisms. Both processes are forms of direct creationism, as opposed to organisms doing their own designing. You keep admitting you “have no idea why God chose to evolve humans over time”, but then you tell us it’s logical!

DAVID: The fact that I do not/can't know God's exact thought does not make my conclusions illogical. God's choice is His alone.

Of course your God, if he exists, chose his own method of achieving his own purpose. The fact that you have no idea why he might have chosen the method you attribute to him to achieve the purpose you attribute to him is a clear indication that there is no conceivable logic behind your combination of attributions.

DAVID: As for 'evolving everything', evolution is a direct complexification of previous simple structures. The word 'simple' refers to a simple concept of evolution, but you are correct, the steps are, at times, very complex.

Yes, indeed, and the more non-sapiens complexities your God specially designed, the less logical your fixed beliefs become.

dhw: I simply question the logic of your version of God specially designing billions of life forms, econiches, lifestyles and natural wonders so that they could eat or not eat one other until he specially designed the only thing he wanted to design.
[,,,]
DAVID: Please accept God's choice of method and it is all logical. Your objections are simply questioning God's motives and purposes.

Once more, my objections are to your personal interpretation of your God’s motives and purposes. And how can you possibly insist that you know God’s choices, can’t understand them, but find them logical?

dhw: Hence the alternative hypotheses I have offered you, including one in which humans really were the goal: namely, he knew what he wanted, but didn’t know how to achieve it (i.e. an experimental God with limitations).

DAVID: Your illogical version is answered above. God designed everything He wanted to reach His goal.

dhw: You have always accepted the logic of the above version. Please explain why you now find it illogical.

DAVID: Undoubtedly God followed His plan which included a food supply until He evolved humans. You are the one questioning it, implying it is not logical.

So how does that invalidate the proposal that he didn’t know how to achieve the goal you attribute to him, and therefore had to keep experimenting until he worked it out – as opposed to “I have no idea why God chose to evolve humans over time”?

Under "...updated Adler:)
QUOTE: "What other species builds civilizations, records history, creates art, makes music, thinks abstractly, communicates in language, envisions and fabricates machinery, improves life through science and engineering, or explores the deeper truths found in philosophy and religion? What other species can ponder “seizing control” of its own evolution, as transhumanists do? Which has true freedom? Not a one.”

DAVID: In answering the philosophy of Transhumanism he is echoing Adler's main point .

For me, all the above is blindingly obvious – yes, we are unique in our abilities. I couldn’t care less about Transhumanism. What bothers me is the assumption that our uniqueness somehow proves the existence of an unknown, sourceless mind you call God, proves that we were your God’s sole purpose from the beginning, and proves that the whole history of life extant and extinct was geared to this single purpose.