Big brain evolution: changes in sapiens skull shape;addendum (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Friday, March 09, 2018, 19:57 (283 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: That is the miraculous part of the consciousness God gave us. We know where issues are handled but not how thought is produced.

dhw: So I’m afraid your focus on where issues are handled is irrelevant to our discussion. According to dualists, the s/s/c and not the prefrontal cortex does the thinking, and so it makes no sense for a dualist to say that the s/s/c can’t THINK without the prefrontal cortex.

I agree, but in life the area where the s/s/c is focused is the frontal cortex. I am my s/s/c but can only work with it through the frontal cortex.

dhw: Please clarify which areas of the pre-sapiens brain expanded and which did not.[/i]

DAVID: The limbic area, the cerebellum, and the areas from the middle (motor strip) to the back where vision is handled were developed first. As pre-sapiens developed, the major growth in size was the frontal area, specifically with Erectus and later the pre-frontal cortex really exploded as we arrived.

dhw: Thank you. This fits in perfectly with the dualistic hypothesis that initially the concepts thought up by the pre-sapiens s/s/c caused expansion of the implementing areas of the brain, but as concepts became more complex, the pfc itself as the material link between immaterial thought and material implementation also had to expand. In both cases, the expansion can be interpreted dualistically as a RESPONSE to concepts, not as their source (= materialistically)

That may be your view, not mine. All animals have these early areas because they involve smell, vision, muscle control and coordination, etc. to conduct themselves in activity. No concepts. Early hominins are the same. When given a larger pfc then they can conceptualize and these other earlier parts of the brain don't have to change much. Artifacts prove that.


DAVID: You keep separating s/s/c and brain. You can't.

dhw: […] the immaterial s/s/c works together with the material brain, but they have different functions, and you are the one who separates them in NDEs, which are your evidence for DUALISM. The s/s/c and material body are TWO, not one, whereas materialists believe in ONE: namely there is no such thing as an immaterial self.
DAVID: Yes

dhw: Thank you. Dualists separate s/s/c and brain,using NDE's as evidence, which means that the s/s/c does not depend on the brain for its ability to THINK.

NDE's offer no evidence that new conceptualization occurs. The NDE'r observes and wishes to stay. I don't think the s/s/c in the afterlife invents new theories. It can only exist as it was in life.


Dhw: So Einstein would still be a genius in an afterlife even without his prefrontal cortex.
DAVID: Of course, You’ve gotten my concept.
dhw: And so when you tell us that intelligence “springs from the s/s/c being able to use an advanced brain” you’ve forgotten your concept.
DAVID: Not so. Only in life with a brain to use.

dhw: If intelligence survives the death of the brain, it is absurd to say that it “springs from” the ability to use the brain. According to dualism, intelligence is what USES the brain, it is not the product of its use of the brain!

If your point is true why do different brains in structure have different IQ's as in Einstein?


dhw: If you insist that you cannot THINK without a material brain, you are a materialist. Currently you not a double dualist, you are a dualist/materialist.

DAVID: The NDE shows the s/s/c can function without a brain IN death, not in life.

dhw: Once more: In life the s/s/c “functions” as the thinking self which uses the material self to cope with the material world. NDEs appear to show that the thinking self survives the death of the material self, and that is why it is used as evidence for DUALISM – namely that mind and body are TWO different things. Therefore it is a complete contradiction to argue that the s/s/c or mind cannot THINK without the body/material brain. It simply cannot translate its thoughts into materiality without the brain.

Not my view. I can only construct my personalty by working on my s/s/c with my brain. I think, therefore I am. Any s/s/c is not me unless I can reach it and construct it, using my brain. This is why consciousness is the HARD problem. Material brain, immaterial personality.


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