Big brain evolution: comparing chimp and brain organoids (Evolution)

by David Turell , Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 22:30 (2102 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Environment does not drive massive change as in the Cambrian. Other than the arrival of more oxygen, the very simple Ediacarans had the same sea bottom space to live.

dhw: A change in oxygen levels IS a change in the environment! It may have been massive.

The oxygen level increase was very large, but it drove nothing. It allowed more energy use, IF new forms which needed it, when evolved, were to survive. (Note subjunctive tense.)

dhw: If you do not think whale flippers, monarch migration and cuttlefish camouflage were produced in order to improve chances of survival, but were all simply stages on the way to your God’s special design of the human brain, then please tell us how they are related to the human brain.

DAVID: Silly thought. All of the evolutionary developments lead to Humans. That is history. Flippers or gills have no direct relationship to brains, except both exist in the same body.

Of course it’s a silly thought. That is the point. Whale flippers, monarch migration and cuttlefish camouflage do NOT lead to human brains! Their direct purpose was to improve those creatures’ chances of survival: what you call the “immediate driving force”.

I still will point out, an evolved form must be capable of survival if evolution is to progress. What creates the required genomic changes is what drives evolution, survival simply a requirement.

dhw: […] three days ago you wrote: “Of course I do not know why God made his choice of evolving humans rather than a direct creation”, so how can the link between purpose and method be clear to you? […]

DAVID: I don't try to understand it. It has to be seen as a chosen method since it follows the live of factual history.

dhw: Factual history is vast numbers of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct, with H. sapiens the most recent arrival. The rest is speculation. If God exists, then he masterminded evolution. That does not mean he designed every life form etc. in order to design humans! You accepted that all my alternative hypotheses are possible (= pax), but a few days later you go back to your fixed belief, which you don’t try to understand because you know it doesn’t make sense.

I don't try to explain it, because I ACCEPT it as God's choice. Makes perfect sense to me.

xxxxx

Under “Not enough time”

QUOTE: In what ways do they add to the case for intelligent design? One way is their sudden appearance in the fossil record with fully formed wing articulation. Another evidence concerns the reproductive system in suborders of dragonflies. While the organs in each suborder are constructed from the same basic parts, in each one a different part of the system has the function of sperm transmission—a parallel development in which it appears the same kind of solution was derived independently in several instances. It indicates a kind of design template used several times, as an engineer would use to build different motor engines, using the same parts. (David’s bold)

DAVID: Just like Wistar, but with more sudden appearances now in the fossil record. Note my bold. More evidence for my theory that God uses patterns. Bechly and I are similar converts. It just takes unbiased thought.

dhw: It is evidence that there are patterns. Patterns are part of the evidence evolutionists use to demonstrate common descent. The process above is convergence. If God exists, then of course the patterns are his doing. As for “time”, this is used to discredit the hypothesis of random mutations, which we both reject. I agree that the problem disappears if your God preprogrammed or personally manipulated the reproductive systems of different dragonflies – but why he bothered is beyond our comprehension if his one and only purpose was to produce the brain of H. sapiens.

Not 'beyond our comprehension', only yours in this discussion.

dhw: The problem also disappears if your God endowed the dragonflies’ cell communities with the intelligence to manipulate their reproductive systems – and then we don’t need to cudgel our H. sapiens brain as to why he would bother if his sole purpose was to produce that brain.

I firmly believe God designed most of everything which obviously needs to be designed.