Big brain evolution: changes in sapiens skull shape (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 13:50 (256 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: Control entails the conscious will. If you think the conscious will is a product of the brain and not of the soul, so be it. That is materialism.
DAVID: I can only repeat in life I reach and control my s/s/c through a functioning brain interfaced with the s/s/c.

You keep agreeing (as below, now bolded) that I = the s/s/c. So now apparently your s/s/c reaches and controls your s/s/c! I suggest that a dualist’s s/s/c reaches and controls the functioning brain. To use your pet analogy, the software controls the hardware.

DAVID: The only way you can experience your s/s/c is with a living brain. They are inextricably connected. My s/s/c uses the brain to let me communicate with the thoughts I create. I=s s/s/c.

dhw: And yet you believe that NDE patients experience their s/s/c without a living brain.
DAVID: They don't experience what the s/s/c learns until the s/s/c returns to the functional brain and informs it/them. Non-function and function are the two very separate parts of the NDE. You keep trying to fuse them.

The patients ARE their s/s/c! The self/soul/patient has the experience and informs the brain when the brain becomes functional again! Your confusion is exemplified again by this exchange:

DAVID: You are so confused. You keep forgetting the s/s/c is in two different states during an NDE, with an without a functional brain.
dhw: You are so confused. During an NDE (and an OBE) the s/s/c – according to all the doctors – is without a functional brain. That is why NDEs (and OBEs) are regarded as evidence for dualism.
DAVID: No confusion. Evidence for dualism.

The evidence comes from the claim that during an NDE the patient’s self does NOT have a functional brain, whereas you have just said that he/she does!

dhw: In life they [soul and brain] are indeed inextricably connected: the one does the thinking and the other does the implementing. If I=the s/s/c, YOU don’t need to “communicate” with YOU or your thoughts! You know what your thoughts are! You use the brain to give material expression to your thoughts.

DAVID: Whew: I know the only way my thoughts become material is if they are expressed in speech or written. I must use my material brain to reach my immaterial thoughts. No functional brain, no thoughts available.

First sentence exactly right. The brain gives material expression to the thoughts. Your “I” (s/s/c) has the thoughts. What you say next, however, means that you/yourself/soul don’t know what you are thinking until you have said it or written it!

dhw: Alexander IS his s/s/c! And his s/s/c remembered and interpreted the experience, and used his functioning brain to give material expression to his recollections and his interpretations. Of course it could only do this after the brain returned to its functional state. (NB I continue to adopt the dualist approach in order to point out the contradictory nature of your arguments.)
DAVID: Alexander had no connection to his s/s/c for a week. It recorded the experience without a brain. You agree. What is contradictory?

Wrong. Alexander IS his s/s/c and had no connection to his brain for a week. My parenthesis, though, is to explain why I am adopting the dualist approach, although I remain neutral in the debate. The contradiction lies between your dualistic belief that the soul/self does the thinking/remembering, and your materialistic belief that you can’t think/remember without a functioning brain.

DAVID: Of course we need a functional brain to think.
dhw: Welcome back to materialism. But dualists believe that the s/s/c does the thinking – as appears to be demonstrated by NDEs. We need a functional brain to express or implement our thoughts.
DAVID: Of course the brain is material and you can't reach your s/s/c while alive without it. [Repeated on the "chimps" thread.]

As above. Apparently you don’t know what you are thinking until you have said it or written it.


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