Biological complexity: managing cellular oxygen levels (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, October 17, 2019, 22:57 (1864 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: My argument is that once a danger has been experienced, either the cell communities devise a means of combating it, or the species dies out. This means that organisms are aware of existing dangers, learn from experience, find ways of combating the dangers they know exist, and these ways are passed on by cellular memory to subsequent generations. (dhw’s bold) No crystal ball necessary.

DAVID: your bold is a possible just-so story. It requires conceptualization, so I don't know if it fully explains the insects' instinctual behavior.

dhw: So at least you now think that the above is possible. That’s progress. Thank you. I accept the cavil that we don’t know if it “fully explains” their behaviour, since nobody has yet found a “full” explanation of how consciousness and speciation work at any level.

Not knowing the source of consciousness does't answer the issue of possible precognition of future events.

DAVID (under “water control in trees”): these are complex designs to help the trees handle changing wet and drier climates where they exist. The complexity can be appreciated by looking at the article's illustrations. Only design explains this system.

dhw: Further evidence that even plants learn from experience and refine their survival techniques in accordance with the demands of the environment. Or do you think your God preprogrammed every plant strategy 3.8 billion years ago, or steps in to dabble every time a tree gets into trouble?

DAVID: Again you want consciousness in plants, and I don't accept it. Besides you are ignoring how complex the plant design has to be. It didn't develop by chance.

dhw: I don’t “want” it. I see their behaviour as evidence that their actions are dictated by awareness of what they need to do in order to survive and of the means whereby they can do it. I discount chance, and allow for the possibility that the cognitive powers of ALL cell communities may be the result of your God’s invention of cellular intelligence. I find this more likely than the vision of your hidden God individually preprogramming every undabbled strategy of plants, bacteria, insects, fish, birds, and animals throughout the whole history of life, especially in view of your insistence that the only thing he really wanted to design was H. sapiens.

God may well have given cells the ability to recognize dangers and also good items. Design by Him fits.

Under "Biological complexity"
DAVID: We just do not know how instinctual behavior is generated, but it exists. That animals are adaptable is obvious as is the role of the brain.

Agreed.

Under "Big brain evolution"

"Human brains are certainly bigger than those of our nearest primate relatives, but there are surprisingly few differences in structure. So it is unclear what gives rise to the huge differences in our mental abilities."

DAVID: Why are similar genes handled differently and how did that happen? Perhaps God designing. The other difference is the slower speed of growth of human brains compare to chimps. Why did that happen? God in action.

dhw; Yet again, nobody knows the answers, and so we can only speculate: your God preprogrammed every undabbled variation and innovation 3.8 billion years ago (your proposal), or cells/cell communities work out every variation and innovation autonomously (this ability possibly being your God’s invention).

Yes, it must be speculation, but the overwhelming evidence for design overcomes that to a marked degree. It keeps you agnostic.