Biological complexity: feedback loops are vital (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, September 29, 2019, 08:35 (1883 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw:[…] . We have intelligent information which is not intelligent, and we have functioning information which is not functioning, and now we have intelligent information which is instructions. Why don’t you just use the word instructions instead of faffing about with “information”? And yes, that is another way of saying you believe your God provided the very first cells with instructions or programmes for every bacterial response, organismal innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in the history of life past, present and future. Meanwhile, I suggest you stick to your excellent last sentence: information is not active (and not intelligent, and not functioning), and it requires the intelligence of organisms to use it. Perfectly simple. (my bold)

DAVID: The bold is not my concept. The organisms automatically use the information to guide their actions.

Which information are you talking about now? You wrote: "you still don't understand the meaning of 'intelligent information'. It is a carefully set of instructions for the organisms to follow. Information is not active, as you note, but the organisms can use it to activate processes." So now we have a set of instructions, and the organisms “automatically” use the instructions, which means they have received a set of instructions telling them how to use the set of instructions in order to activate processes. And this simply doubles the problem because you say that instructions are information, but information is not active. How, then, can organisms actively use information about how to use information? Counter proposal: Organisms actively use information about outside conditions and about their own composition in order to activate processes. Many scientists believe that their ability to use this information springs from autonomous intelligence, but I know of one who believes that they are all machines that were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago.

dhw: (re “stromatolites”): Here we seem to have the beginnings of the cooperation between cells which forms the whole basis of evolution.

DAVID: Each cell is alive and fully organized, no more.

dhw: If organized cells bunched together, why do you ignore cooperation?

DAVID: I agree. As in bacterial mats cells will function somewhat differently, but each cell has its own complete internal organization,

dhw: Precisely: a neat description of how different, autonomous, intelligent cells cooperate to form “mats” and organs and organisms. That is the gist of my hypothesis.

DAVID: Neat try: The leap from mats to organs requires intelligent design.

Yes of course, and my point is that mats are the product of intelligent design by individual cells combining, and organs are the product of intelligent design by increasingly complex combinations or communities of cells.

Under "Natural Wonders":
QUOTE: "Like a brain, an ant colony operates without central control. Each is a set of interacting individuals, either neurons or ants, using simple chemical interactions that in the aggregate generate their behaviour."

This is the analogy I have often used myself, and it illustrates perfectly how intelligent cells/ants cooperate to produce a functioning brain/colony.

QUOTES: "From day to day, the colony’s behaviour changes, and what happens on one day affects the next."

"Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next...".

DAVID: As with bridges, automatic individual reactions make the whole colony operate as a unit.

They take new decisions every day according to individual reactions, but clearly they retain memory of earlier successful discoveries (e.g. how to form a bridge). Where have you found the word “automatic”? Do you really believe your God dabbles each new decision, or preprogrammed it 3.8 billion years ago?