Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, March 25, 2022, 08:10 (972 days ago) @ David Turell

Bird migration

DAVID: Ah, planning. You've chosen the birds did it on their own: did they plan for enough onboard energy supply to fly over 10,000 miles of ocean? Your answer?

dhw: How many more times? No planning. They set out to look for a suitable warm spot. Eventually they found one. No doubt some died on the way. But some got there, and their descendants have gone there ever since. Now, for the umpteenth time of asking, please tell us why your God chose to make them fly 10,000 miles – and while you’re at it, please tell us what provisions you think he made to supply them with enough energy to cover the 10,000 miles he made them fly.

DAVID: Again totally blithely ignored the problem of food energy. In God's planning He arranged they were set up with enough energy. Did your bird brains prepare themselves, if doing it on their own? It is only God helping or birds on their own. Either one chose the 10,0000 miles, and your just-so story must accept that.

For the umpteenth time, why do you think your all-knowing God chose a place 10,000 miles away? Didn’t he know of any nearer warm spots? Yes, my birds did that first journey on their own, and they had no idea where they were heading, but I’m sure that some would have found enough food on the way to keep them going. Or do you think your God flew alongside them, popping birdseed into their beaks?

DAVID: Research shows extra energy is on board in some migrations. In other cases they glide on thermals and other tricks. Long distance is the issue, don't forget it as you seem to do.

I have no doubt that after the first migration, birds would have improved their preparations for the repeat flights, and of course gliding on thermals would have been a very useful skill to develop.

How cells communicate

DAVID: You're catching on to how immunity works: the cells can recognize an invader by God's instructions and they add standard killing biochemical agents to the invader. The agents are produced following God's instructions in their cellular DNA.

dhw: Oops! No, that’s not how I envisage immunity working. I don’t see your God telling the cells the name, rank and number of each new invader, or providing a list of invaders covering the rest of time. Ditto the biochemical agents that will be required for each and every new invader. I think that would be just a little far-fetched. What I can envisage is your God giving cells the ability to recognize danger when it hits them, and to cooperate in working out what “biochemical agents” might kill the invaders. But they can’t always do this (think of pandemics), whereas you’d have thought that if an all-powerful God provided your list of instructions, they could hardly go wrong.

DAVID: Thanks for recognizing immunity. You agree cells recognize non-self automatically. Neutrophils attack immediately and T cells and B cells are recruited immediately. That standard immune response happens even in pandemics! Most young folks had covid and survived without immunization shots. Fact! The positive view is most folks survive. You are just the opposite.

Of course I recognize immunity, and I recognize as you do – though you tend to forget it – that there is a gap between becoming aware of a new danger and the discovery of a means to eliminate it. The cells responsible for finding the means sometimes fail to do so. (In your theory, your all-powerful God's "instructions" are inadequate.) Hence 6 million and more deaths from Covid, and untold millions of people suffering long-term effects. I know you think these are just a minor blip and we should dismiss them from our minds, but I still can’t help wondering why your God decided to design such viruses in the first place. Especially since you have called him “kind”.