Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, March 04, 2022, 09:26 (993 days ago) @ David Turell

Immune system complexity

DAVID: My mention of automaticity of response by immune cells tells exactly that, nothing forgotten.

dhw: Your mention of automaticity does NOT tell us how each immune reaction first originated, when cells were called on to process new information and find a solution to the problem it posed.

DAVID: To repeat: immune cells recognize non-self, and automatically attach killing protein, and remember to do it in the future.

Each new disease presents new problems. If it didn’t, nobody would ever fall ill. That is why we humans have to use all our intelligence to try and find cures, because the immune system sometimes can’t cope on its own. It can only “remember” what has already been accomplished, and it is the origin of each cure that would have required the use of intelligence. You have said that God issued the cells with instructions on how to solve each new problem. I suggest that if he exists, he gave cells the ability to work out their own solutions, though we know for a fact that in many cases they are unable to do so. Their intelligence is limited. And in your theory, somewhat surprisingly perhaps, your all-knowing God’s instructions are also limited.

Cellular intelligence: started in bacteria

QUOTE: "Though there may never be a definitive answer to the age-old question of what exactly bacteria and humans have in common biologically, Jouline has begun a broader search for sensors that have a role in sustaining life. (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: You always forget all life has to eat.

dhw: You always forget that not “all life” and food throughout history has been connected with humans, which makes nonsense of your claim that all life was preparation for humans, and part of the goal of evolving (= designing) humans. This sort of statement is the reason why we can never end our discussion of your theory.

DAVID: The obvious connection is the progressive process of evolution.

And this has led to the vast variety of life forms etc. that had no connection with humans plus food.

DAVID: Today ID views Shapiro as I do:

dhw: But this article, as quoted here, does not view Shapiro as you do.
https://mindmatters.ai/2021/11/university-of-chicago-biochemist-all-living-cells-are-co...

dhw: [...] This where the author does a big slide from bacteria functioning “with a lot of intelligence” to the origin of intelligence generally:

QUOTES: "If the cell itself does not create the intelligence it embodies, what does? Panpsychists argue that all of nature participates in some way in consciousness and humans are the most highly developed example. Theists argue that only a mind outside the universe could create something like human consciousness.
"As we learn more and more about the intricate complexities of nature, perhaps debates over the origin of life, intelligence, consciousness, and similar topics will increasingly be between panpsychists and theists rather than materialists and theists. A whole new environment."

dhw: The author is simply raising the problem of the origin of intelligence/consciousness, and is not dismissing the concept of cellular intelligence as you do.

DAVID: The ID inference throughout the article implies God does it. You are so unacquainted with how ID works (no God mention) God is constantly understood as inferred. As a result you and I read the article differently.

You said that “ID view Shapiro as I do”. But the article doesn’t, because it doesn’t debunk Shapiro’s theory that cells are intelligent. It simply asks what is the source of intelligence, consciousness etc. See below for your agreement.

DAVID: In the ID community Shapiro is highly respected as a significant researcher. They obviously reach a different conclusion as to the source of intelligent reactions and responses. I agree with ID.

dhw: Exactly. Shapiro’s concept of cellular intelligence (which you flatly refuse even to consider) is used only as a basis for discussing the source of intelligence generally. You and ID-ers apparently agree that the source is your God, although they don’t mention God and you do. As far as I know, Shapiro steers clear of discussing the possible source.

DAVID: Agreed.

Thank you. I trust you will now withdraw your remark that I am unacquainted with how ID works.