Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, January 23, 2022, 15:05 (1033 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: In skull and brain changes the Mother's cells must need to know in advance how big the new baby's skull is going to be. That is not cooperation but knowing what is coming.(dhw’s bold)

dhw: In my reply, I explained in detail how cooperation worked. You have totally ignored my explanation. I also remarked that in your own theory, your God operated on individual women’s birth canals even before they got pregnant.

DAVID: All women come with the same pelvic form! Your comment is weird. Pregnancy is not a requirement.

dhw: Of course all women now come with the same pelvic form! We’re talking about how that form ORIGINATED when brains grew larger! I propose that changes occur IN RESPONSE to conditions and not in anticipation of non-existing conditions: here the relevant cells would have communicated and cooperated – as I described yesterday – when it was clear that the existing birth canal would have difficulty accommodating the newly existing larger brain. You say your God operated on individual women even before they got pregnant. (GOD to virgin pre-sapiens: “I’m operating now because one day in the future, you might have a baby with a big brain.”) That is what I find weird.

How do women's pelvic bone cells communicate with baby skull cells? Telepathy? Your theory is beyond weird.

dhw: So when pre-whale legs change into flippers, you now agree that it is in response to the new conditions and not in anticipation. Thank you.

DAVID: I'm discussing major gaps! You are not. Stay on point. Water and land existed all at the same time for semi-aquatic pre-whale mammals. God simply helped them become aquatic! The gaps have sequential condition issues prior to the appearance of new more complex forms.

dhw: You claimed your God designed ALL species in advance of the conditions in which they were to survive. I propose that whether God designs them or not, the conditions must change before the species come into existence. You have now conceded that this is true of “major gaps”. I propose that it is true of ALL species. I can see no logic in the concept of innovations taking place before the existence of the conditions they will survive in or exploit.

Still forgetting our huge brain 315,000 years before the uses in modern civilization, as you admitted is my great example of dsign.

Camels’ noses
DAVID: […] the complexity is precise and effective and I believe far beyond dhw's wishes for cellular intelligence. [dhw's bold]

dhw: […] Of course the complexity is precise and effective, and I don’t have a problem with it developing as camels became more accustomed to life in the desert – […] If humans can invent mechanisms that perform wonders, why can’t God? And for good measure, do you really believe that your God specially designed camels’ noses as part of his one and only goal to design humans and their food?

DAVID: I agreed camel's nose can be an adaptation.

dhw: Thank you. And so if your God didn’t pop in to operate on camels’ noses, but created a mechanism that would enable them to make what you yourself describe as “precise and effective” complexity, then (if he exists), he must have given the cells an autonomous mechanism to do their own designing of precise and effective complexities.

DAVID: Same species using God's epigenetics. Remember? Nothing major. I'm much less rigid than you imagine from your rigid viewpoint of me and my thoughts.

dhw: I’m delighted to see your flexibility. A couple of days ago, the camel’s nose was so complex that it was “far beyond dhw’s wishes for cellular intelligence”, but now it is nothing major. So did your God pop in to operate on camels’ noses or preprogramme them 3.8 billion years ago, or did he give the cells a mechanism whereby they could design these precise and effective complexities themselves independently of any intervention by himself?

I originally proposed both ways: "Comment: Great design, as usual better than the ones we make. Did this come with the original camelids? One can propose starting close to a desert and by slowly venturing out the design develops. But the complexity is precise and effective and I believe far beyond dhw's wishes for cellular intelligence. Cells just ain't that smart, even if given design ability by God as dhw always theorizes. A purposeful God sees established endpoints to development by evolution." As you see I can imaginer either way it came. With further evolved thought about camel noses I can go either way and accept epigenetics, a God-given mechanism, as the cause.