Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, December 28, 2021, 14:03 (23 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I'll remind you as before, we individually imagine God. I see your God as much weaker than mine. Our living system in my view is the only one available. You know I'm wrong?

dhw: Of course I don’t know, and nor do you. I just have a feeling that a God who designs and gets what he wants must be stronger than a God who knows what he wants but can’t get it. Your God, according to you, tried but sometimes failed to correct the errors, which suggests to me that he didn’t want them.

DAVID: All we can assume, since this living system works for the enormous majority of us, either designed by chance or by God, it is the only one available that works! There is no theodicy discussion for chance.

If your God exists, how can you possibly make assumptions about what he is and is not capable of? You assume that he is all-powerful, and then you assume that he can’t correct some of the mistakes that result from the system he designed! I don’t know why you mention theodicy, which concerns the problem of how an all-good God can create evil. Of course there is no theodicy discussion if the creator is chance!

A cell repair design
DAVID: See today's entry on quantum imaginary numbers: materialism is dead.

dhw: I shan’t pretend to understand what this is all about, but please note the quote: “The researchers stressed, however, that their experiment only rules out theories that forgo imaginary numbers if the reigning conventions of quantum mechanics are correct. Most scientists are very confident that this is the case, but this is an important caveat nonetheless.” Have you conducted a poll among scientists and discovered that they all think materialism is dead?

DAVID: If we use imaginary numbers that mathematicians make up to describe the quantum basis of reality, then any form of materialism is dead.

dhw: If we use imaginary properties that atheist scientists make up from combinations of matter and energy, then God is dead.

DAVID: Not comparable. The made-up numbers work, which means reality requires mind.

The authors and you have both used conditional “if” clauses. But you also stated earlier “materialism is dead” without an “if” clause. I asked if you had conducted a a poll among scientists to see if they agree.

T cell
DAVID: The quote refers to cellular apoptosis. All organisms prior to vertebrates had immune systems and vertebrate immune system came from them. Your point is is off base.

dhw: Of course it’s not off base. Clearly if T cells only exist in vertebrates, they were not part of the immune system of earlier life forms, and therefore you cannot say they were there from the beginning. They would have evolved, just as vertebrate structures evolved from invertebrates in what you constantly tell us has been a development from the simple to the complex.

DAVID: We cannot know fossil blood! I agree blood evolved, so you are off point. First early vertebrates are late Cambrian and must have had the precursors of current T cells, from teh beginning of vertebrates.

How can it be off point? Your original statement was that T cells must have been designed from the beginning or we would not have survived infections. I pointed out that they only arrived when vertebrates came into existence, and so now you are telling me that they must have arrived from the beginning of vertebrates. In other words, they were not designed from the beginning, but evolved just as blood and vertebrae evolved!

Zebrafish inner ear
dhw: I am always struck by the fact that so many researchers emphasize the manner in which cells cooperate to create new structures. Thank you for two more quotes for the collection:
“The inner ear is a model for how cells work together to make complex structures that are needed for organisms to function."
“Our work shows a new way of doing things," Megason said, adding that he hopes it will encourage people to consider additional mechanisms that may be involved in shaping tissues. Cells have to use many different forces in order to accomplish what they need to.”

DAVID: Of course they do automatically as controlled by DNA instructions.

I don’t have a problem if you think that, in accordance with the theory of cellular intelligence, the autonomous guiding intelligence of cells is situated within the DNA.

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