Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, January 05, 2022, 12:40 (1051 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I do not believe that your all-powerful God was incapable of designing a system without errors, and was incapable of correcting some of those errors but left it to us to do so.

dhw: Under “How cells eat and poop”:
QUOTE: " The process is known to break down in several diseases, including cancer and Alzheimer's disease."

dhw: These, I take it, are some of the “errors” your God was unable to avoid and also unable to correct.

No comment from you.

DAVID: My purposeful God is way stronger than your humanized one as previously explained. Why can't you accept my theory that this is the only form of life system to an all-powerful God. If God can do anything He wants, and this is what He produced to create life, this must be the only way possible. Defy that logic!

What logic? If God can do anything he wants, then if he wanted an error-free system, he would have created it!!! The logic here is that if he could do anything he wanted, this must have been the system he wanted. So maybe the “errors” you say he didn’t want and couldn’t correct were not “errors” and he didn’t want to fix them. Maybe he wanted cells to be free, and what you call the “editing systems” are simply the responses of what we call good cells as they fight for survival against what we call bad cells.

How cells save proteins
QUOTE: […] "This shift can "clear up" the toxic proteins before their toxicity levels get too high.

DAVID: more proof of God's error editing processes showing He recognized errors could happen. dhw's complaints are not logical.

Or more proof that if God exists, he gave “good” cells the wherewithal to design their own defences against “bad” invaders. See above for your strange concept of logic.

T cells
dhw: I propose that these evolved when vertebrates first came on the scene, and new solutions were required by the arrival of new problems, thus mirroring the whole course of evolution.

DAVID: Crazy idea. Before vertebrates evolved earlier forms must have had precursor forms of T cells or an equivalent. All earlier forms had immune systems.

Of course they did. And evolution is the history of how comparatively simple forms, including immune systems, developed into comparatively complex forms, as cells developed new responses to new challenges. Bones, brains, penises and T cells were not “complete from the beginning”. I suggest that what was there “at the beginning” was the (perhaps God-given) mechanism that would produce them all.

Zebrafish inner ear
DAVID: If God used Chixculub He had it as part of His plan.

So do you believe he planned every change in environmental conditions, global and local, and every response, species, econiche, lifestyle, natural wonder, and problem plus solution right at the very beginning? Never dabbled because he had a new idea? Or because new conditions required his intervention?

DAVID: I know you can't tell me His underlying thoughts either, but I'll ask the same of you. Posing as a sort-of theist what were God's purposes?

dhw: If he watches his creations with interest, I suggest his purpose may have been to provide himself with something interesting to watch, added to the enjoyment of creation. And I would further suggest that it is far more interesting to watch events that are unpredictable than to know in advance exactly what is going to happen.

DAVID: All humanizing approaches to an imagined God. God is above needing enjoyments, tantalizing events for entertainment. God knows what He wants and does it with purpose.

Why have you ignored your own past “humanizing” answers? That he perhaps wanted us humans to recognize his work and form a relationship with him, that he enjoys creating, that he watches his creations with interest? Of course if he exists, he knows what he wants and does it with purpose. So once more, if you wish to ignore your own past statements, please tell us now what you think was his purpose in creating humans, and in the light of your later talk of plural “goals”, what these might have been.

dhw: Hence the free-for-all, with the vast variety of wonders, as all the different life forms work out their own ways of survival. But maybe an occasional dabble (Chixculub, or the Cambrian) when the spectacle could do with a bit of new life. It all fits in perfectly with the history of life, don’t you think? But so too does experimentation, to try and create a life form with consciousness more like his own, or experimentation to find out what will happen if…

DAVID: God knows exactly what He wants and does it without requiring any human needs for His enjoyment or entertainment.

How do you know?

DAVID: All goals are shown in historical endpoints.

What plural “goals”? Every single extinction was an endpoint.

DAVID: Usual note. I don't know why He picked the goals He picked, but you constantly demand guesswork, which makes it your problem.

Please tell us what these goals were! If you can’t tell us what the goals were, or why he chose them, or how they fit in with life’s history, then I suggest that the theory might just possibly be wrong. I don’t see that as my problem!