Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by David Turell , Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 15:37 (1044 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Again you use describing words like 'kindly' which do not judge God's proposed actions. Stay on point, please, if you have an answer. I am looking at purpose in creation with God's enjoyment reaction as a side issue to guess at.

dhw: Enjoyment can be a purpose! But we are not “judging” your God’s proposed actions! We are debating (a) the nature of those actions (e.g. did he design every single life form, or allow freedom of choice, or experiment?) and their purpose (e.g. to produce nothing but humans and their food, or to produce an interesting free-for-all). You complain that all my alternatives to your one illogical theory “humanize” your God. But you use the same humanizing terms as I do, and even go so far as to add your belief that your God is too “kindly” to wish us any harm. “Stay on point, please.”

You have never understood how humanized your God appears to be: He needs entertainment, He experiments as if not knowing where He is headed from the beginning of His creations, or He throws in free-for-all to let the process find its own ending even if not His!!! Your God has no sense of purpose, but your God wants entertainment as purpose.

DAVID: I have only agreed that species modify to new changes as the same species.

Your usual volte face when challenged. Under “Oxygen” you wrote: “It is obvious more complex life forms were allowed to appear as more oxygen became available. […] You cannot design an organism dependent on oxygen if it isn’t present.”

DAVID: You keep ignoring my point God chose to evolve us from bacteria. All of evolution connected. Your constant illogical complaint slices it into disparate parts.

dhw: If God exists, he chose to evolve ALL life forms from bacteria, and the bush of life evolved into countless separate branches or “disparate parts”, most of which had no connection with humans.

dhw: No response from you.

Same complaint, so my worthless answer in your eyes given again: He chose to evolve us from bacteria by designing all stages and the vast bush is food for all. From Jan. 10:

"The Earth is a giant restaurant. All life must have continuous energy supply to live. From the theodicy viewpoint it is impossible to create life not needing energy supplies. All organisms live in their own organized ecosystem, the complexities of which have been shown here. They have developed since the start of life and its diversification."

Antibiotic resistance

DAVID: An all-knowing God knew which system for life would work and used it recognizing errors were probable.

dhw: That is not what you wrote, which was that he “designed the system He wanted that He knew would work”. This can only mean that he did not want "errors" he could not control, so they were not errors, and he did not try in vain to correct them. They are the consequence of freedom of choice, and what you and I consider to be a “bad” bacterium or a cell "going wrong" would, if it could talk our language, tell us that it’s simply finding its own way to survive - just like the "good" bacteria and cells which try to fight off the invaders.

DAVID: Of course it means he did not want the accompanying error potential…..

dhw: So you agree that he designed the system he wanted, but the system he wanted included things he didn’t want!

He was willing to accept the errors since it was the only system available to use

DAVID: ….and provided editing. I repeat, an all-knowing God knew which system would work and which wouldn't. We live in the only one available.

dhw: His “editing” didn’t always work. Of course he knew which system would work, and we live in a system which works, so we should assume that the system works in precisely the way he wanted! Not with “errors” which he didn’t want and couldn’t correct!

The editing system is part of an error-possible system, so of course editing made errors

Biofilms
dhw: Your beliefs and the fact that we have big brains are not attributes that denote intelligence! These, I suggest, would include the ability to absorb and process information, remember it, pass it on to fellow members of the community, cooperate with them, reach decisions, implement those decisions. Please tell us what other attributes have convinced you that your fellow humans are intelligent and are not mere automatons.

DAVID: Our free will discussions established that. And we live inside ourselves, while observing cells from their outside.

dhw: Free will is a debatable issue. Meanwhile, you and I do not live inside each other. I hope you regard me as intelligent. Please tell me what attributes, other than those listed, convince you that I am autonomously intelligent and am not an automaton.

My points require answers that automaticity cannot create.