Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, February 18, 2022, 11:46 (791 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: So I'm not allowed to quote my experts as you do with you adopted favorites.

dhw: But you don’t quote them. You tell me they accept Shapiro’s theory but reject it. You tell me they support what used to be your theory until now – that your God’s only purpose was to create humans plus food – but actually, no they don’t. All they support is the theory that life was designed.

DAVID: My theory is an amalgam of sources. ID gives me the design backing. Adler adds humans as an endpoint.

We needn’t dwell on the now defunct theory that humans were your God’s one and only purpose, which received backing from nobody, but we are still left with your theory that all cellular behaviour is automatic and predetermined by God’s instructions. This is tantamount to saying that all of evolution is dictated by God’s instructions. It’s another major issue, since it leads us back to the “facetious “ questions on the thread concerning your theory of evolution.

DAVID: It is rational to see the possibility of innate cellular intelligence, but how cells could possibly cause future design as well as all their obvious automatic activity is an extrapolation beyond rational belief.

dhw: For the umpteenth time, they do not “cause future design”. They respond to present needs or opportunities. Once they have created a successful design, then of course it will remain as it is until the next change in conditions either kills them off or makes them adapt or allows them to innovate. Their automatic activities are what enable them to remain stable as species.

DAVID: This comment is simply survival of the species leading to new speciation. Pure Darwin.

You have agreed that the changes that lead to speciation are all associated with the purpose of improving chances of survival. You seem to think that the very mention of the word “Darwin” invalidates any argument against your own theory, which is that your God makes all these changes before they are needed (i.e. in anticipation of the future). This in spite of the fact that in your analysis of the Cambrian explosion, you agree that oxygen came first, because if the species had been designed before the oxygen was there, it could not have survived. I maintain that this principle applies to all speciation. Changes first, and speciation is in response to those changes. This argument removes your objection that cells can’t design for the future, because cells don’t do so – they design responses to present conditions. But of course so long as those conditions continue unchanged, the new species will have a future (i.e. will survive).

Immunity system explaining B cells

DAVID: […] immunity is seen as automatic by most scientists I know.

dhw: Most cellular actions have to be automatic to preserve the status quo. It’s when things go wrong that autonomous intelligence manifests itself. Do most scientists you know believe that cells are provided with God’s instructions to deal with any new problems that might arise? […]

DAVID: ID article s are not allowed to mention God, but He is inferred as the required designing mind.
And:
DAVID: Some questions come across as facetious. All ID folks believe as I do. Said many times.

dhw: Firstly, you said “most scientists I know”. I presume you know of scientists who are not ID-ers. Secondly, once again you dismiss my question as facetious. Why? You keep repeating over and over again that cells obey your God’s instructions. That is your explanation of their automaticity! I keep repeating that many activities have to be automatic to preserve the status quo, but other activities require intelligent reactions to new situations. The scientists you quote make no reference whatsoever to the question of HOW cells know what to do.

DAVID: Yes they do, giving an answer you seem to hate: information in their genome drives all living cell activity. Information from a designing mind.

We are not talking about “information”, but even if we were, do all the scientists you know say that the information came from a "designing mind"? We are actually talking specifically about instructions, and so my question is: do all the scientists you know tell us that all cellular behaviour is governed by God’s instructions?