Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, March 17, 2022, 09:21 (980 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] do you think [your God] deliberately planned life as a “constant war to survive by eating”? Or do you think he was unable to devise a system that did not demand war? Please answer.

DAVID: I think you have invented a pacifistic complaint about God. What would humans be like as pastoral animals? An aggressive nature produces progress. I'm delighted with God's approach. Life started with bacteria attacking each other. […]

dhw: Presumably this means you think your God deliberately designed life to be a “constant war to survive by eating”. […] The concept of a free-for-all war would certainly be more interesting for him to watch than what you regard as “pacificistic” and “pastoral”, and maybe he even shares your own apparent delight in aggression.

DAVID: Why is it so important to you that God allows organisms to self-design? How does that help you solve the issue of whether God exists? I'll add an article today about directed mutation which follows on a previous entry.

This has nothing to do with the question of God’s existence! IF he exists, I’d like to know what our world might reveal of his possible nature, purpose and method. You now appear to believe that your God deliberately created a system of war and aggression rather than a pacifistic, pastoral system. And yet I thought you believed he was a kind God. You reject the possibility of an interesting free-for-all, so please tell us why you think he wanted war. Meanwhile, here is your “added article”:

Evidence of non-random mutation
QUOTE: These results upend the traditional example of random mutation and natural selection, turning it into an example of a nonrandom yet non-Lamarckian mutation. (David’s bold)

DAVID: Wow! Here we see just the mechanism dhw proposes in a very specific limited example, changing hemoglobin into form malaria cannot enter. And it doesn't seem a chance random mutation. But this is not at the level of complex phenotypical or physiological design dhw wants God to give organisms.

This has nothing to do with God’s deliberate creation of life as “a constant war to survive by eating”, but I’m delighted to see such support for my theory. Thank you. (I agree that it doesn’t necessarily extend to innovations. That is why we only have a theory and not a fact.)

Carnivorous plants

dhw: […] thank you for confirming my view that each new attack requires a new response, as opposed to your God having already issued instructions in advance. The library grows with each new response, i.e. the disease and the protection do not arrive simultaneously.

DAVID: The response is instantaneous, but antibody production takes a little time. Killer immune cells are immediately active.

An instantaneous response that fails to kill the invader is not going to add a new volume to the library. The need to produce new antibodies makes it abundantly clear that the disease and the protection do NOT arrive simultaneously!

BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER CONTROLS

DAVID: Must be designed all at once at the time the first real brains appeared, or brained life would not have survived.

It's possible that just like all other organs and organisms, they were subjected to toxins and antigens, and in what you call “the constant war to survive by eating”, in due course they developed their own forms of protection. No doubt many would have died before the cells were able to design this means of survival. Again, the attack would have preceded development of the defence. Just a theory.

Cell complexity increases

DAVID: My instant decisions are from information in my brain developed by repeated practice. All cell automaticity is guided by intelligent instructions.

Of course it is. And the question is where those instructions come from. You think a Turell decision sets the automatic Turell processes in motion. The theory you detest is that a cell decision sets the automatic cell processes in motion.

Bird migration

DAVID: Birds use God-given senses, and you carefully avoided the main point of the origin of the decision to migrate enormous distances.

If God exists, we also use God-given senses in order to make our decisions about where to go and how to get there. You just can’t imagine that birds might observe and learn and calibrate and recognize places without your God preprogramming them or planting a self-driving sat nav in their brains. I see this as the main point, but as regards the origin, my guess would be that when the first flocks found themselves freezing in England, they decided to get away to warmer climes. Who can blame them? I expect millions died in the search, but once a flock had found a sunny spot – no matter how far away – that became the destination for all their descendants. What’s your theory?

How cells communicate

QUOTE: "In nature, many cells send and receive chemical signals. This strategy allows bacteria to regulate their behavior, fungi to mate and human cells to notify each other of threats.

DAVID: dhw how do cells exchange design ideas with these molecular signals?

These molecular signals are their language. If they can notify each other of threats, why should they not be able to notify each other of means to counter the threats, and of means to threaten others in what you call “the constant war to survive by eating”.