Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by David Turell , Saturday, January 08, 2022, 14:55 (832 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I'll be blunt. You do not understand the nuances of the biochemistry that makes us live. It works and does so because trillions of reactions occur every second correctly. Unfortunately the molecules 'know' how to fold and/or join but for speeds sake do it freely, not under tight control. You've again left out all-knowing. Why? God knows what will work and what won't. It certainly works.

dhw: I’ll be equally blunt. I am not disputing the way it works! I’m disputing your insistence than an all-powerful, all-knowing God is incapable of designing a system free from what you call “errors” which he doesn’t want and can’t control. I’m suggesting that instead of him being forced by conditions of his own making, he has deliberately designed a system in which components are free to diverge from what you might call the norm. That is to say, he did not WANT every single organism to remain exactly the same, and what you call the errors are in fact the result of a far broader freedom which enables cells to diversify not only into diseases but also into new organs and organisms. I am going to give you a quote referring to DNA, which you may or may not recognize: “Those molecules literally act as if they have minds of their own…” Maybe they do.

A God who deliberately designs a system that allows mistakes and diseases is not a kindly God as we have discussed in theodicy. In your desire to escape a designing God who deliberately heads for His exact goals, you have create a God who invites chaos. I don't want Him, and do not accept that distortion of a concept of God.

Biofilms
dhw: […] the fact remains that we have cells combining and communicating for the purpose of survival, which I propose is the pattern that continues throughout evolution. Memory and long-distance communication are essential for such cooperation, and are characteristics of intelligence, no matter how simple it may be by comparison with ours.

DAVID: Yes, cells designed by God to act automatically in just those ways.

dhw: The ability to absorb information, remember it, pass it on to other cells and cooperate with them, and reach decisions relating to countless different situations, may have been designed by God. It would be interesting to know what other attributes you consider necessary before you accept that the possessor is autonomously intelligent.

Proof that cells initiate their own thoughts/ideas.

Zebrafish inner ear
DAVID: An experimenting God is a weak humanized form. My God sets His goals and designs them step by step.

dhw: You only allow him ONE goal (all life forms etc. are/were “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” plus food), and you have him step by step designing every life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. that had no connection with humans plus food. I will never understand why you regard a God who experiments as “weak”, or why you complain if I attribute “human” characteristics to a God who you have said probably has thought patterns and emotions similar to ours, whom we mimic, who loves creating and watches his creations with interest, and perhaps wants us to recognize his work and form a relationship with him.

DAVID: Same distortion of my guesses about God.

dhw: I have quoted your own words. Please explain what has been distorted.

Evolution is totally connected in stepwise development. Humans are fully connected to God's process of designed evolution which you deny in a distortion. My guesses about God are necessarily couched in human terms, but that does make my view of Him humanized as you weakly attempt to do.

DAVID: I've always said God wanted a necessarily large bush with humans as an endpoint.

dhw: “Necessary” for what, since the majority of the branches had no connection with humans? You keep switching from “goal” and “purpose” to the word “endpoint”. If all you mean is that humans are the latest and possibly the last species your God designed, that is very different from saying that all other life forms and foods were “part of the GOAL of evolving [= designing] humans” plus our food. In any case, this is totally separate from the suggestion that your God might have wanted the whole bush, and especially humans, because “he wanted something surprising and unpredictable to watch”. Once again, I’m delighted that you agree to this “form”.

The large bush is necessary to provide enough food. And again, a distortion, God does not need entertainment. but free-willed humans will/are certainly interesting.