Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 11:33 (1009 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Shapiro is not an ID'er but ID liked his work.
And:
DAVID: I've told you before, Shapiro's elegant work on bacteria was appreciated by ID, but his extrapolation to its application to explain evolution was not.

dhw: That is not what you told me, and it is not what I asked. Do (some) ID-ers accept the concept of cellular intelligence designed by God, or do they share your fixed belief that cells do nothing but obey your God’s instructions?

DAVID: I am an exact copy of all ID'ers. God's instructions win.

I’m surprised to hear from you that ID-ers like Shapiro, accept the concept of cellular intelligence (designed by God), and yet reject the concept of cellular intelligence in favour of God’s instructions, although many of them try to avoid even mentioning God. See also the thread on your theory for more dubious views on what ID-ers believe. But frankly, it doesn’t matter here what they do or don’t believe, since this discussion is between you and me.

dhw: I just wish you would respond to the astonishing parallels that we find in the micro world (which you claim is automatic) and the macro world (which you claim is autonomous). This is what Shapiro calls “large organisms chauvinism”, but you don’t seem able to see the parallels.

DAVID: I see all the parallels. Pure parallelism is an observation, not any offer of proof.

dhw: All our theories are based on observation, and none of them offer “proof”. If they were proven, they would be seen as facts and not theories. Would you agree that the parallels offer a rational basis for the theory that since the macro world clearly demonstrates autonomous intelligence, it is POSSIBLE that the micro world is also a manifestation of autonomous intelligence?

DAVID: You can't win. We observe intelligent activity by cells. The rest is logical interpretations of how that is accomplished. I see only automaticity. You theorize the opposite.

Neither of us can “win” because nobody knows the truth. I didn’t think our discussions were a matter of winning or losing. My aim is to consider just how reasonable and believable the different theories are. You have provided us with an amazing service in presenting so many different aspects of the various topics, but it seems that the more we learn, the less we know! Nevertheless, I'd like to know if you think it's POSSIBLE that the parallels offer a rational basis for believing that the microworld's forms of intelligence are as autonomous as those of the macroworld.

Immunity system explaining B cells

dhw: A fine example of how B cells learn from experience. Just like humans, they need time to work out solutions to problems, but they remember what they have done, and then they become more proficient. One would have thought that if God had issued them with instructions, either they would or would not automatically obey them. Maybe instead of issuing them with instructions, he gave them the ability to work out solutions for themselves and to remember what they have done. Just a thought.

DAVID: More flailing for independent cells actions while immunity is seen as automatic by most scientists I know.

Most cellular actions have to be automatic to preserve the status quo. It’s when things go wrong that autonomous intelligence manifests itself. Do most scientists you know believe that cells are provided with God’s instructions to deal with any new problems that might arise? I can’t remember you posting a single article concerning the activities of cells in which your God was even mentioned – except, of course, by you.

Magic embryology

QUOTE: Duncan McKenzie, lead researcher and postdoctoral training fellow in the Crick's Immunosurveillance Laboratory, said: "In order to sense disruption these cells need to know what's normal for the tissue. Like security guards, they stay familiar with their surroundings so that they can most effectively identify when things go wrong.

DAVID: the design never ceases to amaze how complex it is. Rapid automatic response to invaders is vital.

I echo your wonderment, but I repeat the question above: do most scientists you know believe that cells are provided with your God's instructions? (Apologies for the repetition, but I often have to repeat questions before I get an answer! )