Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, January 30, 2022, 11:15 (1026 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: … existing cells complexify in the same sized brain. They are there waiting to be used. […]

dhw: They complexify in the same brain until a new requirement exceeds their complexification capacity, and then they need additional cells. Only when sapiens arrived did existing cells increase their ABILITY to complexify, thus making expansion unnecessary, and this was so efficient that the brain shrank.

DAVID: They enlarge after full use. Each new size and neuron complexity comes large in preparation for new uses. Illogical??

dhw: Yes, they enlarge when their existing complexification capability cannot cope with new requirements. Yes, the new size will contain enough cells to deal with requirements until it’s used up its complexification capacity. But no, the complexity doesn’t “come large” in preparation. The mechanism for complexification remains the same, and bbbthe complexity increases as the brain meets new requirements.

DAVID: We agree and you misread my comment now bolded. New brains with more complex neuron networks in preparation for new uses. Complexification is a process, not a size change.

We certainly agree that complexification is a process, not a size change. But you seem to have completely left out the distinction between complexity and the ability to complexify. The latter is present at all times. In my theory, the brain enlarges because the existing cells are not ABLE to cope with a particular requirement by means of complexification. And so of course the new brain now contains enough cells to cope by complexification with that particular requirement plus any new uses. And then once again a major new requirement exceeds the ABILITY of existing cells to complexify, and once again more cells are needed. At all stages until sapiens (when the ability to complexify is enhanced), expansion RESULTS from the INABILITY of existing cells to meet a new requirement. In your theory, your God operates on each group of brains BEFORE there are any new requirements.

dhw: All this has been discussed before, and you have only raised it because it seems to be your last defence of your theory that all evolutionary changes- except for plants and in the Cambrian! - take place BEFORE conditions change rather than in RESPONSE to changing conditions.

DAVID: It isn't the only example but the simplest to use as we have discussed it. You favor a non-God approach with natural expansion.

This example does NOT prove your theory that your God operates on brains before there is any need for him to do so, and you have not yet found a single example that does. You have even had to concede that in plants and in the Cambrian, conditions must change BEFORE new species can exist. And it is not a non-God approach if an agnostic acknowledges the possibility that there is a God who created the whole mechanism whereby organisms RESPOND to changing conditions, instead of him preprogramming or dabbling every single life form, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder.

Molecular binding controls.
DAVID: In cancer there are new responses which are distortions of what normal cells do automatically.

dhw: Agreed. But cancer cells unfortunately find their own means of survival, and they process and communicate information just as normal cells do. If you believe in common descent, then every evolutionary innovation will entail a change from what some cells “normally” do automatically.

DAVID: Agreed. New automatic processes appear.

dhw: They only become automatic when they are established. You keep refusing to acknowledge that every system must have a beginning, and if you believe in common descent, then that beginning will take place because of cells that do NOT automatically follow an existing pattern. Intelligence manifests itself when cells are confronted with new problems, conditions, requirements, opportunities.

DAVID: All in the eye of the beholders prejudice. All I see is intelligent design.

I also see intelligent design, and your prejudice lies in your assumption that your God would not design intelligent cells, but would prefer to do it all himself.