Cellular intelligence (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, January 23, 2022, 12:17 (1033 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: In skull and brain changes the Mother's cells must need to know in advance how big the new baby's skull is going to be. That is not cooperation but knowing what is coming.(dhw’s bold)

In my reply, I explained in detail how cooperation worked. You have totally ignored my explanation. I also remarked that in your own theory, your God operated on individual women’s birth canals even before they got pregnant.

DAVID: All women come with the same pelvic form! Your comment is weird. Pregnancy is not a requirement.

Of course all women now come with the same pelvic form! We’re talking about how that form ORIGINATED when brains grew larger! I propose that changes occur IN RESPONSE to conditions and not in anticipation of non-existing conditions: here the relevant cells would have communicated and cooperated – as I described yesterday – when it was clear that the existing birth canal would have difficulty accommodating the newly existing larger brain. You say your God operated on individual women even before they got pregnant. (GOD to virgin pre-sapiens: “I’m operating now because one day in the future, you might have a baby with a big brain.”) That is what I find weird.

dhw: And I can’t see what is “humanizing” about the invention of flexible, intelligent cells.

DAVID: I've answered: God will not desire to reach His goals by handing off to the cells secondhand designing. Cells might not go in His desired direction unless He constantly instructs them.

dhw: How many goals has he got? You keep saying he only has one – us and our food. How do you know that his “desired direction” was not to create a vast, ever changing bush of life full of surprising and unpredictable life forms and natural wonders – which actually happens to be a pretty good description of life’s history. You simply answer my question by pretending you know what God does and doesn’t desire! When did he tell you?

DAVID: Analysis of His works with an open mind. Humans are an endpoint for which God spent 3.8 billion years preparing the way for their survival, exactly life's history as seen by a true theist.

Oops, yet again you left out 3.X billion years’ worth of life forms, econiches, natural wonders etc. that had no connection with humans plus food. You always do. And you still haven’t said why inventing flexible, intelligent cells is “humanizing”, and I’m surprised to hear that all those folk (including Adler and all the ID-ers) who never even mention your illogical theory are not “true” theists.

DAVID: [under “Biochemistry"…] all new conditions allow exploitation as more oxygen allowing more organismal complexity.

dhw: And so you agree that conditions change BEFORE organisms (cell communities) change. Cell communities do not change IN ANTICIPATION of new requirements.

DAVID: Only in a major gap like the Cambrian or plant bloom are the conditions prepared for a major change/advance.

dhw: So when pre-whale legs change into flippers, you now agree that it is in response to the new conditions and not in anticipation. Thank you.

DAVID: I'm discussing major gaps! You are not. Stay on point. Water and land existed all at the same time for semi-aquatic pre-whale mammals. God simply helped them become aquatic! The gaps have sequential condition issues prior to the appearance of new more complex forms.

You claimed your God designed ALL species in advance of the conditions in which they were to survive. I propose that whether God designs them or not, the conditions must change before the species come into existence. You have now conceded that this is true of “major gaps”. I propose that it is true of ALL species. I can see no logic in the concept of innovations taking place before the existence of the conditions they will survive in or exploit.

Camels’ noses
DAVID: […] the complexity is precise and effective and I believe far beyond dhw's wishes for cellular intelligence. [dhw's bold]

dhw: […] Of course the complexity is precise and effective, and I don’t have a problem with it developing as camels became more accustomed to life in the desert – […] If humans can invent mechanisms that perform wonders, why can’t God? And for good measure, do you really believe that your God specially designed camels’ noses as part of his one and only goal to design humans and their food?

DAVID: I agreed camel's nose can be an adaptation.

dhw: Thank you. And so if your God didn’t pop in to operate on camels’ noses, but created a mechanism that would enable them to make what you yourself describe as “precise and effective” complexity, then (if he exists), he must have given the cells an autonomous mechanism to do their own designing of precise and effective complexities.

DAVID: Same species using God's epigenetics. Remember? Nothing major. I'm much less rigid than you imagine from your rigid viewpoint of me and my thoughts.

I’m delighted to see your flexibility. A couple of days ago, the camel’s nose was so complex that it was “far beyond dhw’s wishes for cellular intelligence”, but now it is nothing major. So did your God pop in to operate on camels’ noses or preprogramme them 3.8 billion years ago, or did he give the cells a mechanism whereby they could design these precise and effective complexities themselves independently of any intervention by himself?