Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by dhw, Monday, December 27, 2021, 08:35 (845 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I've listed your God' weaknesses: uncontrolled free-for-all, giving design control away, and others, etc.

dhw: If God wanted a free-for-all and designed what he wanted, I’m sorry but for the life of me I cannot see that this makes him weaker than a God who wanted control but “had to” design a system containing errors he could not control.

DAVID: I'll remind you as before, we individually imagine God. I see your God as much weaker than mine. Our living system in my view is the only one available. You know I'm wrong?

Of course I don’t know, and nor do you. I just have a feeling that a God who designs and gets what he wants must be stronger than a God who knows what he wants but can’t get it. Your God, according to you, tried but sometimes failed to correct the errors, which suggests to me that he didn’t want them.

A cell repair design
DAVID: I have proven a designer is required

dhw: You have provided a logical case for the existence of a designer. The only proof would be if your God showed himself to us. There is a logical case for materialism, but the only proof would be if we could demonstrate HOW matter transformed itself into living organisms with consciousness.

DAVID: See today's entry on quantum imaginary numbers: materialism is dead.

I shan’t pretend to understand what this is all about, but please note the quote: “The researchers stressed, however, that their experiment only rules out theories that forgo imaginary numbers if the reigning conventions of quantum mechanics are correct. Most scientists are very confident that this is the case, but this is an important caveat nonetheless.” Have you conducted a poll among scientists and discovered that they all think materialism is dead?

DAVID: If we use imaginary numbers that mathematicians make up to describe the quantum basis of reality, then any form of materialism is dead.

If we use imaginary properties that atheist scientists make up from combinations of matter and energy, then God is dead.

T cell
DAVID: this back up system recognizes the need for T cell preservation, and therefore must be designed from the beginning or we would have not survived infections. This shows foresight of the future is required in creating new designs

dhw: You talk as if T cells were there “from the beginning”. As far as I know, they only arrived when our fellow vertebrates came into existence. Every form of animal consists of cell communities, and I would suggest that T cells were a RESPONSE to new infections that attacked our fellow vertebrates. As with all processes relating to immunity, there would have been – just as there are now – vast numbers of victims until the survivors found a solution to the problem. I was quite taken with the quote: “Like human beings, every cell in our body tries to ward off death as long as it can.”

DAVID: The quote refers to cellular apoptosis. All organisms prior to vertebrates had immune systems and vertebrate immune system came from them. Your point is is off base.

Of course it’s not off base. Clearly if T cells only exist in vertebrates, they were not part of the immune system of earlier life forms, and therefore you cannot say they were there from the beginning. They would have evolved, just as vertebrate structures evolved from invertebrates in what you constantly tell us has been a development from the simple to the complex.

Zebrafish inner ear

dhw: I am always struck by the fact that so many researchers emphasize the manner in which cells cooperate to create new structures. Thank you for two more quotes for the collection:

“The inner ear is a model for how cells work together to make complex structures that are needed for organisms to function."

“Our work shows a new way of doing things," Megason said, adding that he hopes it will encourage people to consider additional mechanisms that may be involved in shaping tissues. Cells have to use many different forces in order to accomplish what they need to.”