Cellular intelligence: (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, December 15, 2021, 17:12 (861 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: 50/50 is an appraisal of possibility, nothing more. Pick your side from what you see as proof. You have none, but I show cell automaticity on many days, no thought involved.

dhw: I keep pointing out that most cellular actions ARE automatic, and have to be if a system is to remain the same. It’s only origins and changing conditions that require intelligence (i.e. changes to what existed before).

dhw: Perhaps you could comment on this observation?

DAVID: Origin of life or of new species requires intelligent design, my constant position.

I don’t have a problem with that position, but intelligent cells (possibly designed by your God) could be the source of intelligent design in evolution. In future, when you give examples of automatic cellular behaviour, please remember that generally I agree, because intelligence is only needed in the context of origins and responses to changing conditions. Otherwise, we'll keep repeating this discussion ad nauseam.

DAVID: Using the Cambrian gap, no major environmental changes have been found, but I have carefully documented here the few papers that discussed possible factors of change. Go look back.

I don’t know what papers you’re referring to. I know that one theory is an increase in oxygen as a major environmental change posited as the cause of the “explosion”.

T cells
DAVID: You cannot use human 'learning' to fit the language in biochemistry. When the T cell recognizes non-self and thereby discovers a foreign protein is present, it automatically invents an answer which identifies the invader, by attaching a protein marker, which allows it to be destroyed or neutralized. That is learning in biochemical speak!!

dhw: So if cells already have God-given “algorithms” to correct errors and to kill foreign invaders, how do you account for the fact that vast numbers of victims (from bacteria to humans) can die before a solution to each new problem is found?

DAVID: Errors are still present, re theodicy.

dhw: But if all life forms have an algorithm to correct the errors, why doesn’t it work until thousands/millions have died?

DAVID: Death is a built-in necessary part of God's living system. Also re view cell proptosis.

So your God built in every imaginable correction (algorithm) for every imaginable error, but he also built in the failure of the correction, and so sometimes the algorithm works and sometimes it doesn’t. Do you think, then, that when humans design a medication to kill bacteria, your God has already selected which ones will or won’t have the efficient algorithm? I find it very difficult to understand how this algorithm automatically works/ doesn't work on all the individuals that are supposed to have it. And I have no idea why you have suddenly told me to “re view cell proptosis”. I’ve never heard of it. The definition I’ve found: “Proptosis (rare plural: proptoses) refers to forward protrusion of the globe with respect to the orbit.” Please stick to the general principles we are discussing.

Cellular intelligence
QUOTE: "While scientists are still working out the details of how the eye evolved, we are also still stuck on the question of how intelligence emerges in biology. How can a biological system ever generate coherent and goal-oriented behavior from the bottom up when there is no external designer? (David’s bold)

"In fact, intelligence—a purposeful response to available information, often anticipating the future—is not restricted to the minds of some privileged species. It is distributed throughout biology, at many different spatial and temporal scales. (David’s bold) There are not just intelligent people, mammals, birds and cephalopods. Intelligent, purposeful problem-solving behavior can be found in parts of all living things: single cells and tissues, individual neurons and networks of neurons, viruses, ribosomes and RNA fragments, down to motor proteins and molecular networks. (dhw’s bold) Arguably, understanding the origin of intelligence is the central problem in biology—one that is still wide open.

Wow! Once again, I can only thank you for your integrity. After claiming that the theory of cellular intelligence belongs to the past, you have suddenly offered us a theory which takes the intelligence of ALL life forms for granted. The only problem is its origin. And of course I agree, that problem remains wide open.

DAVID: [...] pure sophistry of thought. Skipped over is the question of how the first 'modules became intelligent The rest builds upon that enormous gap. Even dhw grants God might have given them intelligent actions. Accepting a designer is a more logical conclusion. Also dhw, please note the bold in the second paragraph!! Necessary anticipation of the future by biological organisms is recognized even by these guys!

He hasn’t “skipped” the question! He says the origin of intelligence is wide open! And yes of course intelligence involves anticipation of the future! Birds migrate, life forms of all kinds provide themselves with protection against predators and the climate, store food, prepare for winter. That is a far cry from your theory that your God looks into his crystal ball, and sees water on the way, and so pops in to operate on pre-whale legs to turn them into flippers and then leaves them lying there waiting for the water to arrive.