Introducing the brain: general (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, March 25, 2022, 08:19 (756 days ago) @ David Turell

Memory formation

DAVID (quoting): "An autonomous car is a vehicle capable of sensing its environment and operating without human involvement. A human passenger is not required to take control of the vehicle at any time, nor is a human passenger required to be present in the vehicle at all. […]". I view cells in the same way!

dhw: So do I: an autonomous cell is a a living entity capable of sensing its environment and operating without God’s involvement. God is not required to take control of the cell or to be present in the cell at all. I propose (theistic version) that just as humans designed the autonomous car, your God designed the autonomous cell. Thank you for this analogy.

DAVID: But you've complained about my use of the word autonomous. The car follows a computer program just as autonomous cells are following God's instructions.

The analogy was of car and cell acting without human/divine involvement. Now you want to change it to the car/cell acting on instructions. Instructions are a form of involvement! Here is a better analogy: you think your God designed humans with the freedom to take their own decisions and do their own designing without his instructions. I suggest that he gave the same freedom to cells.

dhw: You have several times agreed that complexification takes place without your God’s intervention, and I keep asking why the same autonomous mechanism should not also have been capable of increasing the number of cells when needed. […] You never say why God could not have given cells that same autonomous ability.

DAVID: Remember my objection to second hand design? Not never!

That simply means he would not give cells the mechanism to add new cells. Calling it “second-hand design” doesn’t change the meaning. Or should I change the question: if God gave cells an autonomous mechanism to do second-hand complexification, why would he not give cells the same ability to do second-hand expansion?

DAVID: The neurons have instructions in their DNA to add new axon branches and synapses to handle this new load of thought. God obviously not needed as they do it. They ARE FULLY PREPARED BY PREVIUS DESIGN.

dhw: WHAT ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS? If God designed the mechanism (theistic version) whereby new connections are autonomously created, the only further instruction I can think of is God saying: “Now use it.” As if the cells would need reminding!

DAVID: The neurons have a full set of instructions.

To do what? Tell themselves to remember to use the mechanism your God gave them? Or instructions on how to tackle each and every problem that will arise for the rest of time?

neuron density

QUOTE: “If an animal has billions of neurons, it’s definitely more clever than an animal that has millions of neurons. But I would not say that it is a very tight correlation.”

DAVID: […]. Neuronal density with synaptic connectivity is the key to high mental process ability. We and birds (clever corvids) have it. Also note my bold regarding its evolution as most unusually "sudden and rare."

dhw: There is no disagreement that enhanced complexity accompanies greater intelligence. Since intelligence is relative, I’m not entirely convinced by the claim of rarity - insects have been shown to solve problems set by us humans. I don’t know where you found the word “sudden” in the article. Even human intelligence has evolved very gradually. […]

DAVID: Sudden and rare is in the article, as an expressed opinion.

Rare is in it, and I have commented above. Sudden is not in it. Do you regard human intelligence as a sudden novelty or a gradual development?

Libet’s timer gaps

QUOTE: As adults, we wait until the traffic light turns green before making a turn. In both situations, the brain has planned our precise movements but suppresses their execution until a specific cue (e.g., the shout of "GO!" or the green light).

DAVID: So it is set up and go when triggered. Explains why Libet found his gaps. And again confirms the view the brain is always prepared to help us by being set up in advance. Since we plan the movement in our brain, the brain knows the future activity before it happens. […]

dhw: What happened to memory? We learn that green means go, and from then on we remember the lesson. We have already planned to go, otherwise we wouldn’t be on our way, would we? So “going” is not “triggered” by the green light and our brain looking into the future. Our brain simply reminds us that we mustn’t continue our “going” until the light is green. is that too simple an explanation?

DAVID: No. It seems you repeated what is in the article with a strange twist. Let's just see how it explains Libet's findings of microseconds delays!

I’m lost. Please explain why it is so important (and even surprisng) to know that it takes a fraction of a second for a feeling to pass from skin to brain, and how on earth this denotes the brain knowing the future, which would have to be the other way round – brain knowing before touch happening? And please explain what is strange in my comment.