Miscellany (General)

by dhw, Tuesday, August 17, 2021, 10:28 (67 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The cell's autonomous ability comes from following the instructions algorithms to recognize foreign protein invasion and neutralize it, just as your stomach handled the curry independently of your consciousness, and autonomously.

dhw: Why have you ignored what I wrote yesterday? “Of course many actions are automatic – it’s only when things go wrong or new problems arise that autonomous intelligence is required.” There is a world of difference between the established, automatic actions of properly functioning digestive processes and the intelligence needed to recognize new problems, process new information, and create new solutions.

DAVID: The automatic editing mechanisms are automatic to correct mistakes as much as possible. We have had long discussions about their imperfections. I fully reject the idea that cells can think and invent solutions on their own. They have generally effective instructions to follow.

Then let me repeat the following exchange:
dhw (4th August): Do you mean that your God planted instructions on how to create each new antibody for each new future threat? Or do you mean that he gave our cells the ABILITY to recognize each new threat and to respond to it by creating new antibodies de novo without him having to intervene”.

DAVID: You’ve got it!!! The latter portion of your comment is exactly what God did!

On August 4th you agreed that your God did not plant instructions but gave cells the ability to recognize, respond and invent new antibodies (de novo) without his intervention. Today you fully reject the idea that they can invent new solutions without your God giving them instructions.

The role of survival in evolution
DAVID: […] Flippers are required for water survival and a fruitful life in a new environment.

dhw: So you agree that your God gave them flippers to improve their chances of survival in the water, and yet such anatomical changes which lead to speciation apparently have nothing to do with improving chances of survival!

DAVID: Usual distortion: viewing it from God's viewpoint, each stage of evolution must survive until God is ready to prepare the next advanced speciation.

So your God must change the legs into flippers to enable the pre-whale to survive until the next operation, but the change of legs into flippers has nothing to do with survival. And likewise, apparently every species that ever existed first had to be operated on stage by stage so that it could survive till the next stage, but all the operations your God performed on every pre-species in order to enable them to survive till the next stage had nothing to do with survival.

Retinal design allows prediction of movement
DAVID: Don't go off on tangents. Irreducible complexity is an underlying basic concept requiring design. To answer your wonder, they believe in stepwise evolution with design covering the huge gaps.

dhw: The tangents are yours, since you refuse to answer my questions! Of course irreducible complexity is an underlying basic requiring design. Now tell me if your ID-ers believe that your God designed every degree of vision etc. all at once. And of course they believe in stepwise evolution with gaps. Now tell me if they believe that your God preprogrammed or personally dabbled all the individual anatomical changes that constitute speciation BEFORE any of them were required.

DAVID: You force me to repeat the obvious. Irreducible complexity means all-at-once design for all advances. This means God speciates: in the whale series design first, new stage prepared for its new environment.

You force me to repeat my question: Do ID-ers all support your belief that different degrees of vision etc. were all designed at once, and do ID-ers all support your belief that your God created species by individually designing every single anatomical change BEFORE it was required by changing conditions, and not IN RESPONSE to changing conditions? A simple yes or no will do.


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