Miscellany (General)

by David Turell , Saturday, July 17, 2021, 18:51 (1223 days ago) @ dhw

Proper Big Bang view
dhw: We would all accept that life and consciousness must have a source. The idea that the source of life and consciousness is sourceless life and consciousness could be called “wishful thinking”. You have never understood that for an agnostic, both explanations are equally difficult to accept. And your claim that proof of the BB provides “absolute proof” of God’s existence remains untenable. Do you really think that every scientist who believes the BB happened is also a staunch theist – or, if he/she is not, then they are total idiots?

The scientists, who are 90% atheists , evoke material reasons for the BB. There are those of us who feel the BB came from nothing by God's endevours.

Humans correcting errors

DAVID: God's intelligent design of the neurons and their instructions.

dhw: I can accept the theory that your God designed the first cells. I find it difficult to believe that 3.8 billion years ago, he gave them instructions to cover every undabbled evolutionary innovation, econiche, natural wonder, strategy and solution to all future problems. How else could your God have passed on his “instructions”?

That is why I consider Him dabbles as necessary. The human brain didn't just appear. i view it as a God design.

Detergent defenses

DAVID: So your thinking cells designed the manufacture of the attacking molecule and their own self-protection mechanism all at once with complex biochemical designs.

dhw: Not all at once. My proposal is that defences are only invented once there is a new problem. And yes, I find Shapiro’s theory that intelligent cells are able to come up with all the complex biochemical designs needed for evolution and problem-solving more convincing than your theory bolded above.

You didn't answer the requirement for cells, producing two processes at once, untested for worthiness.

DAVID: The article is pure Darwinism, which I ignore as I analyze from design standpoint. […] Your brilliant cells are like finding fairies in the dell. To do this the cells must recode DNA to create the new information/instructions. How do cells create new information?

dhw: I don’t know why you think the name Darwin automatically invalidates any argument. You argue not just from “design standpoint” (your God’s design of cellular intelligence, and intelligent design by intelligent cells are both from “design standpoint”) but also from your belief in the theory bolded above, though you prefer to gloss that over with terms such as “instructions”. Of course recoding and new “information” are required for all kinds of changes. Why do you think your God is incapable of designing a mechanism which can make these changes, and therefore he has to preprogramme every single one or do a dabble?

You bring up the point of whether God is in control completely or not. I favor full control.

Slime mold

DAVID: […] I think the responses are automatic to what is sensed.

dhw: The authors could hardly make it clearer that they attribute changes in form and function to intelligence and “primitive cognition”. One up for Shapiro.

DAVID: And my take, as above, is just the opposite. The authors are Darwinists.

dhw: Please tell me whereabouts Darwin refers to the link between intelligence and morphogenesis, or to the “primitive cognition that drives form and function”. But thank you for your integrity in quoting yet more scientists putting a case contrary to your own.

I have to do it to present scientific evidence for my theistic analysis

Immunity system complexity
QUOTE: "When we are exposed to a pathogen, the immune system's B cells swarm to our lymph nodes, spleens, and tonsils. There, those cells mutate in germinal centers—microscopic boot camps that rush the B cells through volleys of mutations to produce the most potent antibodies for neutralizing the infectious agent. As long as a germinal center is up and running, B cells are free to mature and perfect their approach to fighting disease.

dhw: Cells having the ability to mutate (change themselves) and to ”perfect” their response to different demands is of course crucial to the theory of evolution by way of cellular intelligence. It is clear from this process that the solution to the problem is NOT already there: it is the mechanism for solving the problem that is there.

Exactly, the cells contain information/instructions from God in their DNA's as to how to do it,