Miscellany (General)

by David Turell , Monday, June 07, 2021, 15:17 (1055 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I admit if one looks at all 3.8 billion years of God's evolution mountains as in the Cambrian Explosion, which, by the way, bothered Darwin more than you.

dhw: What do you admit? Hopefully, that it is going a bit too far to propose “algorithms” that will cover every eventuality throughout the history of life, whether programmed 3.8 billion years ago or individually dabbled as your God inserted his multi-choice questionnaire as and when needed. Yes, the Cambrian bothered Darwin more than me because when he wrote in later editions that “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or one”, it never occurred to him that one of the powers might be the autonomous intelligence of cells/cell communities to process information, communicate with one another, and take decisions as to how and when to use that intelligence.

I view cell intelligence as cells following God's DNA instructions which include how to decode the instructions.

DAVID: And I'll stick by my theory that God: "provided the mechanisms for change and “the organisms then use them independently as minor adaptations are required by changes." I'm discussion the molehill daily changes and minor epigenetic alterations. You are attempting to change the purview of the discussion too all of evolution. Didn't work. Plants act intelligently by following God's instructions, all previously discussed.

dhw: I am pointing out that if organisms (not just plants but all forms of life) have the autonomous intelligence to create minor adaptations, it is possible that they can do the same with major changes. Nobody knows how speciation occurs, and the only alternative you can offer to this and to Darwin’s random mutations is your full programme of “algorithms” or instructions provided by your God to cover the whole of the past, present and future. But do please tell us what you “admit”, and for good measure, please tell us whether you do or don’t regard processing of information, communication and decision-making as signs of autonomous intelligence.

The bold is your overarching cell intelligence theory based on the agreed-upon appearance of cell intelligence from all the cell activity we observe from the outside, but could come from God's instructions inside, based on a 50/50 probability I originally offered. I'm on the God side of the slash mark and you on the no-God side.

Clear evidence of common descent
DAVID: I explain evolution as the work of God. You describe its appearance as history.

dhw: We both agree that the history is a bush of life with countless branches. I have no problem with the proposal that your God designed it that way. The difference between us is…SEE BOLDED THEORY. [Your God’s only purpose was to design H. sapiens, and so he individually designed millions of life forms, ecosystems, natural wonders etc., 99% of which had no connection with humans.] And while I believe in the continuity of common descent, i.e. all species (except the very first cells) descending from earlier species, you believe your God created each one de novo, and for you this constitutes continuity.

DAVID: God makes it continuous.

dhw: How can it be continuous if he created every species de novo?

DAVID: You make my point and strangely don't recognize that. Evolution is/was a continuous process because God designed the gap jumps.

dhw: Yes, let’s skip the bolded theory again. As for continuity, the only form of it that you are offering is that the same maker made every species. The actual history of evolution, according to you, is one jump after another.

The bold is Darwinist Gould's original observation, not mine.

dhw: As you readily agreed some time ago, the brontosaurus has no direction connection to humans. Without connection there is no continuity. Compare that to common descent, in which every life form is descended from an antecedent. There you have the connection that provides continuity. We should not forget that the reason for your insistence on “continuity” is your desperate attempt to prove that all life forms are/were “part of the goal of evolving [= specially designing] humans”. (Otherwise why have you raised the subject?) I’m sorry, but even your definition of continuity does not explain why he designed the brontosaurus in order to design you and me.

Unfortunately you've lost the fact that the complexity in evolution builds in stages from the past. Bronto is now the lizards and lizard-like organisms that fill a portion of the ecosystems that feed the other existing organisms. God ("the same maker")supplies the continuity. I do not accept Darwin's common descent, I accept Gould's.