Miscellany (General)
DAVID: The differing stimuli for plants is quite small: hot, cold, wet, dry , sun direction, bugs nibbling, fungi on roots helping. Your mountain is a molehill.
dhw: I am proposing that adaptation by plants and animals and even bacteria follows the same procedure: the cells make changes to cope with (or exploit) the new conditions. The different stimuli (including both dangers and opportunities) and the different problems have been changing through the 3.8 thousand million years of life’s history. According to you, the “molehills” become mountains if cells have to cope with or exploit them on their own – only your God can dabble or preprogramme the changes: even for minor changes he now has to provide an “algorithm” covering every eventuality! Why don’t you stick to your original, perfectly straightforward agreement that your God provided the mechanisms for change and “the organisms then use them independently as minor adaptations are required by changes”? Independence does not mean obeying instructions or choosing the right answer from a list of possible answers provided by your God. Finally, do you agree that the processing of information, intercommunication and decision-making are signs of intelligence?
DAVID: I admit if one looks at all 3.8 billion years of God's evolution mountains as in the Cambrian Explosion, which, by the way, bothered Darwin more than you.
What do you admit? Hopefully, that it is going a bit too far to propose “algorithms” that will cover every eventuality throughout the history of life, whether programmed 3.8 billion years ago or individually dabbled as your God inserted his multi-choice questionnaire as and when needed. Yes, the Cambrian bothered Darwin more than me because when he wrote in later editions that “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or one”, it never occurred to him that one of the powers might be the autonomous intelligence of cells/cell communities to process information, communicate with one another, and take decisions as to how and when to use that intelligence.
DAVID: And I'll stick by my theory that God: "provided the mechanisms for change and “the organisms then use them independently as minor adaptations are required by changes." I'm discussion the molehill daily changes and minor epigenetic alterations. You are attempting to change the purview of the discussion too all of evolution. Didn't work. Plants act intelligently by following God's instructions, all previously discussed.
I am pointing out that if organisms (not just plants but all forms of life) have the autonomous intelligence to create minor adaptations, it is possible that they can do the same with major changes. Nobody knows how speciation occurs, and the only alternative you can offer to this and to Darwin’s random mutations is your full programme of “algorithms” or instructions provided by your God to cover the whole of the past, present and future. But do please tell us what you “admit”, and for good measure, please tell us whether you do or don’t regard processing of information, communication and decision-making as signs of autonomous intelligence.
Clear evidence of common descent
DAVID: I explain evolution as the work of God. You describe its appearance as history.
dhw: We both agree that the history is a bush of life with countless branches. I have no problem with the proposal that your God designed it that way. The difference between us is…SEE BOLDED THEORY. [Your God’s only purpose was to design H. sapiens, and so he individually designed millions of life forms, ecosystems, natural wonders etc., 99% of which had no connection with humans.] And while I believe in the continuity of common descent, i.e. all species (except the very first cells) descending from earlier species, you believe your God created each one de novo, and for you this constitutes continuity.
DAVID: God makes it continuous.
dhw: How can it be continuous if he created every species de novo?
DAVID: You make my point and strangely don't recognize that. Evolution is/was a continuous process because God designed the gap jumps.
Yes, let’s skip the bolded theory again. As for continuity, the only form of it that you are offering is that the same maker made every species. The actual history of evolution, according to you, is one jump after another. As you readily agreed some time ago, the brontosaurus has no direction connection to humans. Without connection there is no continuity. Compare that to common descent, in which every life form is descended from an antecedent. There you have the connection that provides continuity. We should not forget that the reason for your insistence on “continuity” is your desperate attempt to prove that all life forms are/were “part of the goal of evolving [= specially designing] humans”. (Otherwise why have you raised the subject?) I’m sorry, but even your definition of continuity does not explain why he designed the brontosaurus in order to design you and me.
Complete thread:
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-16, 10:42
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-16, 14:21
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-17, 10:38
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-17, 15:29
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-18, 10:33
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-18, 14:14
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-19, 08:18
- Miscellany - David Turell, 2020-12-19, 15:25
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-20, 09:30
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-20, 17:59
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-21, 12:04
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-21, 15:23
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-22, 10:48
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-22, 15:21
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-23, 11:12
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-23, 13:12
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-24, 09:50
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-24, 21:40
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-26, 10:56
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-26, 17:01
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-27, 11:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-27, 14:46
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-28, 08:21
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-28, 13:25
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-29, 09:11
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-30, 02:06
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-30, 11:54
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-30, 18:41
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-31, 08:53
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-31, 23:19
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-01, 11:07
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David Turell,
2021-01-01, 15:47
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-02, 09:22
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-02, 15:15
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-03, 10:59
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-03, 14:40
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-04, 08:46
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-04, 15:28
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-05, 11:32
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David Turell,
2021-01-05, 13:43
- Miscellany -
dhw,
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- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-06, 14:36
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-07, 09:11
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-07, 14:30
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-08, 11:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-08, 15:28
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dhw,
2021-01-09, 08:54
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-09, 15:03
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-10, 09:31
- Miscellany -
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- Miscellany -
dhw,
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- Miscellany -
David Turell,
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- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-12, 09:07
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-12, 21:02
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-13, 09:05
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-13, 18:34
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-14, 09:18
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-14, 20:29
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-15, 09:02
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David Turell,
2021-01-15, 22:19
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dhw,
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- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-16, 15:27
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-17, 09:33
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-17, 14:06
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-18, 09:02
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David Turell,
2021-01-18, 16:50
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-19, 11:24
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-19, 15:17
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-20, 11:15
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-21, 01:25
- Miscellany -
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- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-21, 19:21
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-22, 09:38
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2021-01-22, 19:33
- Miscellany -
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- Miscellany -
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2021-01-23, 19:05
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-24, 08:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-24, 19:19
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-25, 09:04
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2021-01-25, 15:20
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2021-01-26, 09:03
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2021-01-27, 01:49
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2021-01-27, 13:01
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David Turell,
2021-01-27, 17:57
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2021-02-04, 08:53
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dhw,
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dhw,
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- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-11, 09:20
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2021-02-12, 16:18
- Miscellany -
dhw,
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- Miscellany -
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dhw,
2021-02-18, 11:16
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-18, 18:11
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-19, 11:08
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-19, 19:38
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-20, 11:33
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-20, 21:44
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-21, 11:13
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-21, 21:51
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-22, 13:25
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-22, 19:05
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-23, 16:49
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-24, 15:53
- Miscellany: how algae find light - David Turell, 2021-02-24, 18:57
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-25, 12:53
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-26, 00:06
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-26, 14:24
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-26, 18:17
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-26, 18:17
- Miscellany -
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- Miscellany -
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2021-02-26, 00:06
- Miscellany -
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2021-02-24, 15:53
- Miscellany -
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- Miscellany -
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2021-02-23, 16:49
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-23, 12:53
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-22, 19:05
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-22, 13:25
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-21, 21:51
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-21, 11:13
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-20, 21:44
- Miscellany -
dhw,
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- Miscellany -
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2021-02-19, 19:38
- Miscellany -
dhw,
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- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-18, 18:11
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-18, 11:16
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-17, 18:27
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-17, 13:38
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-16, 18:02
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-16, 12:20
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-15, 22:55
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-15, 12:33
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-14, 18:45
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-14, 16:00
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-13, 19:13
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-13, 12:20
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-12, 16:18
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-12, 11:22
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-11, 16:53
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-11, 09:20
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-10, 14:52
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-10, 11:57
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-09, 18:54
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-09, 12:43
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-07, 14:13
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-07, 11:03
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-06, 19:03
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-06, 11:32
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-05, 15:22
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-02-05, 08:56
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-02-04, 15:43
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-27, 17:57
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-27, 13:01
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-27, 01:49
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-26, 09:03
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-25, 15:20
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-25, 09:04
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-24, 19:19
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-24, 08:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-23, 19:05
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-23, 12:59
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-22, 19:33
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-22, 09:38
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-21, 19:21
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-21, 12:28
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-21, 01:25
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-20, 11:15
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-19, 15:17
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-19, 11:24
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-18, 16:50
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-18, 09:02
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-17, 14:06
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-17, 09:33
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-16, 15:27
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-16, 10:35
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-15, 22:19
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-15, 09:02
- Miscellany -
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2021-01-14, 20:29
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-14, 09:18
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-13, 18:34
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-13, 09:05
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-12, 21:02
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-12, 09:07
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-11, 14:54
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-11, 10:40
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-10, 14:56
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-10, 09:31
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-09, 15:03
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-09, 08:54
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-08, 15:28
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-08, 11:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-07, 14:30
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-07, 09:11
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-06, 14:36
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-06, 08:56
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-05, 13:43
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-05, 11:32
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-04, 15:28
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-04, 08:46
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-03, 14:40
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-03, 10:59
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-02, 15:15
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-02, 09:22
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2021-01-01, 15:47
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2021-01-01, 11:07
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-31, 23:19
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-31, 08:53
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-30, 18:41
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-30, 11:54
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-30, 02:06
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-29, 09:11
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-28, 13:25
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-28, 08:21
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-27, 14:46
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-27, 11:14
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-26, 17:01
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-26, 10:56
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-24, 21:40
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-24, 09:50
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-23, 13:12
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-23, 11:12
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-22, 15:21
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-22, 10:48
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-21, 15:23
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-21, 12:04
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-20, 17:59
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-19, 08:18
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-18, 14:14
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-18, 10:33
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-17, 15:29
- Miscellany -
dhw,
2020-12-17, 10:38
- Miscellany -
David Turell,
2020-12-16, 14:21