Miscellany (General)

by David Turell @, Friday, March 12, 2021, 18:43 (515 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: I know what you find hard to imagine. Getting two organism together in a symbiotic relationship requires a cooperation between both in which they conceptualize the future benefits. Not likely. God designs the pairing.

dhw: You seem to be obsessed with the concept of conceptualization and planning for the future. Maybe the relationship develops from a chance encounter, and both parties are intelligent enough to recognize the mutual benefit. Nobody knows for sure, but the three theories outlined above (planned 3.8 billion years ago, directly dabbled, all part of the goal of evolving humans) seem to me less likely than intelligent recognition of the benefits of cooperation.

DAVID: How does one encounter cause millions of symbiosis arrangements in various species?

dhw: Not one encounter! Millions of encounters, whether by chance or by intention. Where do you get ONE encounter from?

Does each encounter organism explain the process to other organisms to create the automatic process that appears. You want some sort of communication . I say God makes the arrangements.

ID explained: are cells intelligent

dhw: Just clarifying: ID folks do not support your theory that cells obey instructions issued by God 3.8 billion years ago, or by means of direct dabbling. In fact, I seem to remember you saying that they liked Shapiro’s ideas, which of course favour design by intelligent cells (which in turn could have been designed by your God). As a matter of interest, do they explicitly reject this theory?

DAVID: They find Shapiro as producing evidence of design.

dhw: Fair enough. But if they don’t mention God, and they don’t mention your anthropocentric theory of evolution, and they don't oppose Shapiro's theory of cellular intelligence, it seems that although you say “All ID folk side with the latter” (i.e. cells follow your God’s intelligent instructions), in fact the only common point between you and them is that they and you believe in intelligent design.



DAVID: […] There is no way this could develop stepwise by chance. Why? The produced oxygen is too dangerous, if not controlled from the beginning. Try to deny the designer in this case. This is the best evidence for God, as designer, I've ever found.

dhw: You always assume that when confronted with a new problem, bacteria immediately come up with the solution. But we know that when confronted with new problems, bacteria die by the million before eventually they find a solution. Not by chance, but as the article says: “they must develop ways to minimize the damage”.

DAVID: God sees to it they minimize damage because God designs the various complex parts of photosynthesis. Concentration of oxygen requires protective mechanism present at the same time. Simultaneous development required. Only design works.

dhw: Yes, the protection only works when the protective mechanism is in place. That doesn’t mean millions of bacteria didn’t die before the protective mechanism came into place. The article says “they must develop ways to minimize the damage when the bacterium does encounter oxygen.” This suggests that the protective mechanism only developed in response to the fatal encounter with oxygen. Same problem for bacteria as when they have to respond to new antibacterial medications.

If they all died from oxygen poisoning, nothing would develop as protection. God has to design the mechanism and the protective processes all at once. You want natural mechanisms and keep hoping they appear naturally.

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