Miscellany (General)

by dhw, Sunday, July 18, 2021, 09:35 (1015 days ago) @ David Turell

Proper Big Bang view
dhw: […] your claim that proof of the BB provides “absolute proof” of God’s existence remains untenable. Do you really think that every scientist who believes the BB happened is also a staunch theist – or, if he/she is not, then they are total idiots?

DAVID: The scientists, who are 90% atheists , evoke material reasons for the BB. There are those of us who feel the BB came from nothing by God's endevours.

Precisely. You could hardly provide a better demolition of your claim that if the BB happened, it would provide “absolute proof” of God’s existence.

Humans correcting errors
DAVID: God's intelligent design of the neurons and their instructions.

dhw: I can accept the theory that your God designed the first cells. I find it difficult to believe that 3.8 billion years ago, he gave them instructions to cover every undabbled evolutionary innovation, econiche, natural wonder, strategy and solution to all future problems. How else could your God have passed on his “instructions”?

DAVID: That is why I consider Him dabbles as necessary. The human brain didn't just appear. i view it as a God design.

According to you, there are no life forms, econiches, natural wonders etc. that “just appeared” – you view them all as God’s designs. Have you now discarded the 3.8-billion-year-old programme altogether? This would suggest that your God was constantly at work designing and directing absolutely everything bit by bit from the first cells to trilobites, dinosaurs, mosquitoes, the duckbilled platypus, ant bridges and the weaverbird’s nest – and all as “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” and their lunch. You don’t find this a little far-fetched?

Detergent defenses
DAVID: So your thinking cells designed the manufacture of the attacking molecule and their own self-protection mechanism all at once with complex biochemical designs.

dhw: Not all at once. My proposal is that defences are only invented once there is a new problem. And yes, I find Shapiro’s theory that intelligent cells are able to come up with all the complex biochemical designs needed for evolution and problem-solving more convincing than your theory above.

DAVID: You didn't answer the requirement for cells, producing two processes at once, untested for worthiness.

I don’t understand what you mean. My proposal is that whenever a new threat appears, the cells work out a defence. This may take time – it is a sequence: problem first, solution second. The two processes only exist at once after the solution has been designed.

DAVID: To do this the cells must recode DNA to create the new information/instructions. How do cells create new information?

dhw: Of course recoding and new “information” are required for all kinds of changes. Why do you think your God is incapable of designing a mechanism which can make these changes, and therefore he has to preprogramme every single one or do a dabble?

DAVID: You bring up the point of whether God is in control completely or not. I favor full control.

I know you do. You challenged my proposal, and so I am asking why you think your God is incapable of designing cellular intelligence that can recode DNA and create new information.

Slime mold
dhw: […] thank you for your integrity in quoting yet more scientists putting a case contrary to your own.

DAVID: I have to do it to present scientific evidence for my theistic analysis.

Where have you found scientific evidence that your God popped in to teach slime mold how to look after itself?

Immunity system complexity
dhw: Cells having the ability to mutate (change themselves) and to ”perfect” their response to different demands is of course crucial to the theory of evolution by way of cellular intelligence. It is clear from this process that the solution to the problem is NOT already there: it is the mechanism for solving the problem that is there.

DAVID: Exactly, the cells contain information/instructions from God in their DNA's as to how to do it.

As to how to do what? New problems require new solutions and new mutations – hence evolution. You seem to have dropped the 3.8-billion-year-old plan for every individual solution, so now you have your God popping in to issue new instructions a zillion times? Why do you totally reject the simplest explanation: that your God (theistic version) gave all organisms, from single cells to the most complex cell communities, the ability (i.e. intelligence) to solve problems as and when they arose without his having to do all the work himself?

New life evolves earth’s climate
QUOTE: However, this climate instability, in turn, helps to accelerate evolution." (David’s bold)

DAVID: note the bold. Of course changing climate changes the course of evolution. This brings me back to the proposal I've presented. God works to creates our reality by evolving each part, the universe from the Big Bang, the Earth from its origin and life from its.[something missing] From this article we see Earth-Life-Climate co-evolvement.

I don’t think even the most ardent atheist would disagree that evolution, Earth, life and climate are inextricably linked