Miscellany (General)

by dhw, Monday, August 02, 2021, 10:37 (82 days ago) @ David Turell

Death is built in
dhw: What you call the “drive” is the need for change to enable survival, and the changes are what “advance” evolution.

DAVID: The same empty survival of the fittest argument repeated. The 'drive' is God's designs of new advanced species as in whale series.

Please explain why you think your God changed legs into flippers before pre-whales entered the water.

Immunity system complexity
dhw: WHAT instructions? Here is my theistic proposal: God has given cells the ABILITY to solve problems. God has NOT given cells the SOLUTIONS to all the problems. Do you agree?

DAVID: Word play. The instructions tell the cells how to recognize new invaders and then manufacture appropriate antibodies to fit onto the invading molecules to inactivate them. Of course God gave them this ability.

dhw: An ability is not the same as instructions. You have the ability to design your own house. God has not given you instructions on how to design your house. If you now agree that your God has given cells the autonomous ability to design appropriate antibodies, but does not give them instructions on how to construct each and every antibody, we can shake hands and duly apply the same distinction to evolution itself: cells have the autonomous ability to do their own designing. You believe that God gave them this ability, and I accept that possibility.

DAVID: More word play. By 'ability' I mean instructive mechanisms in recognition and response by the cells..

What is an “instructive mechanism”? The ability to recognize a problem and to respond by solving it is the polar opposite of being provided with instructions on how to solve each individual problem. Please stop obfuscating.

New extremophiles
dhw: Same as above. God has given cells the ability to solve problems. God has NOT given cells the solutions to all the problems. Do you agree?

DAVID: Of course, unless you backtrack as before. God gives the cells the ability to have the proper responses.

You will have to tell me where I have backtracked, since this is the proposal I have been putting forward for years (if we presume that your God exists). Thank you anyway for confirming your agreement that your God does NOT provide solutions in advance, but has only provided the ability to find solutions. In the hope that you will not “backtrack”, may I point out to you that the ABILITY to solve problems requires autonomous intelligence and does not depend on being giving precise instructions on how to solve every individual problem.

DAVID: As above God provides cells with complete mechanisms or recognition and response.

I presume “or” is meant to be “of”, and yes, the mechanisms enabling recognition and response are what give cells the ABILITY to recognize and solve problems. As above, being able to recognize and solve problems is the exact opposite of being provided with instructions on how to solve each individual problem.

Caterpillar memory
DAVID: At least you note the need for design from the beginning.

dhw: Yes, of course. And you have agreed that cells/cell communities have the ABILITY to do their own designing.

DAVID: That is your misinterpretation of my theories.

You agree that they have the mechanisms for recognizing and responding, and the response is a designed mode of survival, so what have I misinterpreted?

Larvae use virus for immunity
dhw: Another wonderful example of the gigantic free-for-all, as all life forms struggle to find their own ways of survival. It’s half the story of evolution – the other half being cooperation for exactly the same purpose of survival. And yet some people can’t see the connection between evolution and the quest for survival.[…]

DAVID: Same repeated feeble survival of the fittest.

I don’t know why you think this repetition, accompanied by the word “feeble”, somehow invalidates the theory that organisms adapt and innovate in order to improve their chances of survival, and those which fail to master new conditions fail to survive. The same principle would apply even if your God did the designing. As I have asked above, why else would he have changed legs into flippers?


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