Evolution: more genomic evidence of pre-planning Part One (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, May 08, 2021, 13:27 (1293 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Still trying to ignore the facts. I've changed and you don't notice. I've previously granted the cells which were eventually discarded may have had or did have light use 315,000 years ago.

dhw: I keep pointing out that you have changed, and yet you still insist that you haven’t changed! Excess cells were not “on board” when modern sapiens arrived, because the cells were used! Some cells (not necessarily the new ones) BECAME excessive when enhanced complexification took over. Sadly, this will now have to be repeated over and over again.

DAVID: You've simply agreed with me. We are both agreeing the cells were used, but eventually discarded as excess.

It took a while to persuade you that the cells were used, and you are still telling us that they were excessive from the beginning (“excess cells were on board the moment sapiens big brain arrived”), which means they were NOT used! And you are still saying it was the new cells that were eventually discarded, whereas we don’t know which cells were discarded.

DAVID: What you object to is my concept of God knowing in advance those extra cells would become excess cells as we got to really use our brains and complexification tailored our brain to our preferred usages. A prime example of God's pre-planning.

Once more: we do not know if the extra cells later became excessive, and all you are saying here is that God knows the future. I don’t why you consider it good planning if your God gave us excess cells (though they were used, which means they were not excess!) knowing that they would become excess. More muddle.

DAVID: The sapiens brain arrived bigger than it had to be to handle the eventual heavy use in the last 70,000 years. Some cells became excess. With my clear concept God added extra cells so we could tailor our brain to our free-willed new uses.

dhw: You have agreed that the new cells were used, so the brain was NOT bigger than it had to be at that time! Yes, some cells BECAME excessive when enhanced complexification met the new requirements (i.e. “tailored” the brain) and proved so efficient that some previously essential cells (they were used) were no longer essential.

DAVID: Yes our big brain arrived with excess, redundant cells. We agree.

dhw: We do NOT agree! They were NOT excess or redundant when they arrived! You have agreed that they were used! Please stop contradicting yourself!

DAVID: No contradiction. God planned for them to be eventually discarded as you have just described.

I have not described any such thing! I have disputed your claim that they arrived “with excess”, I have not mentioned any divine plan, and we do not know which cells were discarded.

DAVID: All we know and can theorize from is what we learn from our brain's history. Since past forms tend to advance complexity, I assume past brains did what our brain does less complexly.

dhw: Of course past brains would have been less complex. How does that come to mean that your God inserted unnecessary new cells for no immediate purpose, although in fact they were used? I also assume that past brains autonomously complexified and expanded (hippocampus) just as present brains do. Thank you for agreeing.

DAVID: God's instructions allowed the cells to have autonomous actions following the given information with the cells God-given decoding ability.

dhw: In plain English, your God gave cells the ability to complexify and expand without his interference. These autonomous actions could only take place if cells were aware of requirements and were able to take the decisions necessary to meet those requirements. Once again, thank you for accepting my theory. Do you agree or disagree that autonomous awareness and decision-making denote intelligence?

DAVID: The cells knew what to do in complexification from God's instructions.

In other words, your God created the mechanism enabling them to decide what to do.

DAVID: Then yes, they could act in an autonomous fashion adding designed circuitry using some neurons from the excess of neurons God provided so humans could do free-will tailoring of their new big brain, with the brain eventually shrinking by 150 cc taking the excess neurons out of the picture. Makes perfect sense to one who believes in God.

You’ve almost grasped my theory, except that you are still insisting that the new cells were excessive – contradicting your agreement that they were used – and “the excess neurons” seems to suggest the discarded neurons were the same ones, whereas we don’t know which neurons BECAME excessive. Otherwise, the process itself makes perfect sense whether you believe in God or not. Meanwhile, do you agree or disagree that autonomous awareness and decision-making denote intelligence?