Evolution: more genomic evidence of pre-planning Part One (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, April 30, 2021, 12:09 (1301 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The brain is not a factory with fixed machines. The brain was given innate plasticity so the excess cells could be jettisoned when those cells finally needed were reorganized into the best efficiency.

dhw: An exact parallel to the plasticity of staffing: when a more efficient method is developed, excess staff are made redundant. Neither the original staff nor the original cells were excessive until a more efficient method took over from the original method.

DAVID: Note you have used the word excess.

Note: you have completely ignored the relevance of the image to our discussion: staff and cells only become excessive when a more efficient method (new machines for staff, enhanced complexification for cells) takes over from the original method. The point of the analogy was to explain to you how redundancy works. You still insist that the jettisoned staff/cells were excessive/redundant from the beginning, whereas I propose that in both cases they were essential from the beginning.

dhw: You agree that the modern brain complexifies and in one case (hippocampus) expands autonomously, and past brains would have operated in the same way. Therefore (theistic version) your God’s role would have been to design the mechanism that gave all brains their autonomy. What method can you conceive of, other than cellular intelligence?

DAVID: I don't accept innate cellular intelligence. Cells give the appearance of intelligence as they follow intelligent instructions/information.

You keep repeating this mantra, so let me repeat the point you keep dodging: following instructions is the exact opposite of autonomy. If you believe that the modern brain complexifies (and in one case expands) autonomously, i.e. without God dictating the thoughts etc. that cause its complexifications and expansion, what mechanism can you propose, other than cellular intelligence?

DAVID: I've never agreed to species brain expansion as autonomous, only very local enlargement of already enlarged brains in a new species.

We are not talking about species expansion but about the expansion of the human brain, and you have agreed that the hippocampus of modern sapiens expands autonomously, by which I mean your God does not perform operations or give new instructions to the modern hippocampus. And you have agreed that past brains would have functioned in the same way as modern brains. If your God gave us the mechanism for autonomous complexification and expansion, then the same mechanism would have been present in the brains of our ancestors. Please explain why you find this illogical.

dhw: In our next exchange, you even tell us that the neurons made the decision to jettison excess cells. God’s didn’t instruct them to do it. The cells did it. […] how else could cells take such decisions autonomously if they were not intelligent? [dhw's bold]

DAVID: Full misinterpretation again in the bold above. Our current neurons have a complexification mechanism, we both recognize, to do the job, a system designed by God.

And the complexification mechanism, like the mechanism that enables the hippocampus to expand, is autonomous! The cells make the decisions! And if God exists, then he would have designed the mechanism. You are developing a new technique: you claim that my argument is a misinterpretation, and then you echo it!

dhw: I have only said that some cells were not needed when enhanced complexification coped with all the new requirements. Only then did they become “excess”, whereas you keep telling us they were “excess” right from the start.

DAVID: I've given you the point they may have had light uses from the beginning, but were always intended by God to be excessive.

I’ve offered you the point that since (theistic version) complexification and expansion would have been the results of the autonomous processes designed by your God, the brain would not have produced the extra cells unless they were necessary at the time. And they would have continued to be necessary until enhanced complexification took over from expansion. And I still can't see why your God would have interfered with the autonomous mechanism he had designed, so that he could provide the brain with “excess” cells that were not necessary at the time, performed something called “light usage” (hardly worthy of 150cc), and later on would not be needed anyway.