Evolution: fish to land animals transition (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, November 29, 2020, 18:46 (1453 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: How did we get here if we were not an anticipated goal stating from bacteria? We start with recognizing God created the universe. His purpose is evident when we see life appear.

dhw: With my theist’s hat on, of course I will accept that your God created the universe, and that he created life on purpose. This is your usual dodge of glossing over all the flaws in the rest of your theory. For those of us who believe in evolution as common descent, EVERY life form got here, starting from bacteria! So please stop ignoring the bold above.

I ignore your bold because our beliefs are so different. Under my belief system I find your objections as totally illogical. As God is in charge He does whatever He wishes for whatever His reasons happen to be.

DAVID: Who created the universe? Didn't God do it first hand with no intermediates? He created life all by Himself. Why your need for distancing Him in living designs? Trying to diminish His controls or His importance?

dhw: There is no diminution if your God decided to create a system by which his invention would be able to design all its own variations. On the “theodicy” thread you have now suggested that his powers are limited. Just like us humans, he can only act within his limitations. THAT is diminution.

DAVID: The bold is, as usual, a distortion of my statement that limitations may exist, which does not suggest they are really limited.

dhw: Nobody knows the reality, but you have made a suggestion, and I have pointed out its implications. Please don’t make a suggestion if you don’t want it to be taken seriously as a possibility.

But you take off in your subsequent discussion as though it is probable. Possibilities should be entertained to have a fair and open discussion.

DAVID: Your so-called intelligent cells, without brains, would need a universe-sized instruction book to follow to mimic God's abilities in new design. In all design work it is easier to do it yourself than parcel it out, although when over-whelmed co-equal designers help out at the human level. Please keep God at His level as you attempt to create theosophies at His level.

dhw: But according to you, your God did precisely that – he provided the first cells with an instruction book to be passed on for every undabbled life form, econiche, strategy and natural wonder in the history of life!

DAVID: Only a theory, not fact, of pre-planned coding.

dhw: NONE of our theories are fact! You have offered only two methods by which your God controlled evolution: preprogramming and dabbling. You have pooh-poohed the idea that cells would need a universe-sized instruction book to come up with every life form etc., but that is YOUR idea. Mine is that they work out their own designs, using their perhaps God-give intelligence. If you now wish to withdraw your theory that every undabbled life form, natural wonder etc. is preprogrammed with your God’s “universe-sized instruction book”, then by all means do so. That leaves your God dabbling every single life form etc.

It still is either preplanned coding or constant dabbling. I do favor the latter. You can't explain the source of the intelligent actions of cells, but when forced you drag God in to stay balanced on your picket fence. But even then it is hedged with God giving second-hand inventive mechanisms, so cells sort of do it own their own, God in the background, in a secondary position for all new designs. I always see God as in primary control, but you never can accept that.

dhw: And not just that, but for reasons you yourself cannot fathom, his goal in providing the instruction book for all life forms plus their food supplies was to produce one life form plus its food supplies, although 99% of the life forms produced by the instruction book had no connection with humans. I don’t know why this way of designing humans was “easier” for him, but you can’t figure that out either, can you?

DAVID: I don't try to figure out God's reasons. They are His alone. He chose evolution with all its necessary branches for food supply. Life lives on energy consumption. I know you must eat even now chocolatiness, but you constantly leave out all the necessary components for evolution to work.

dhw: We have been over this time and time again. Nobody will deny that every life form needs food. But you have acknowledged that past food supplies were for the PAST and had nothing to do with the PRESENT, and yet still you refuse to acknowledge the illogicality of your God directly designing millions of life forms and food supplies that had no connection with humans, although you claim every one of them was “part of the goal of evolving [-= directly designing] humans.”

The usual silliness. Evolution from bacteria to humans is a continuum. You want to chop it up into unrelated segments when everything present is obviously related to the past.